#21 || A SURVIVOR AND HER PERPETRATOR FIND JUSTICE
TRANSCRIPT
Note: Transcripts may contain errors, and audio should be checked before quoting in print.
[00:00:00]
NARRATION
This is reckonings. I'm Stephanie Lepp and I'm not going to say very much about this episode except for the fact that I've been wanting to do it for over a year. So I am so grateful to have found Anwen and Sameer. Not their real names. And with that here is Sameer.
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SAMEER
I think it was Modern Warfare 2 was the first one I ever picked up which was like back in 2010 or something. But basically FPS first person shooter video games. That's what I would spend nights like literal weekends saying up until 4:00 5:00 in the morning and was your typical just like I don't want to talk to anybody. Just play my video games kind of teenager.
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NARRATION
And here is Anwen.
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ANWEN
So Lindy Hop is a vintage swing dance. It has its roots in the African-American music that grew [00:01:00] out of the 20s and 30s. It's just alive and joyous and there's a lot of improvisation. So that's what I was doing. As many nights a week as I could in high school.
I think the first time I saw Sameer was a party called the end of the world party or something like that first semester freshman year off campus house. Lots of people there was definitely alcohol there. I didn't have any. he was wearing I think like a gray. Sure, I think he was wearing like a black tie to he was kind of dressed up. He might have been he might have had like suspenders on. very tall and pretty like broad too.
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SAMEER
truthfully was her eyes. Anwen has these fantastic pair of [00:02:00] eyes and just very friendly smile.
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ANWEN
we got introduced and then he said hey, do you want to dance and I said well something along the lines of sure as long as it's not that like bumping and grinding type of dancing like I'd swing dance and so he's like, okay I know a little bit of Swing.
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SAMEER
By a little bit. I mean like little to no swing but I was willing to learn if I could talk to this to this girl Anwen.
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ANWEN
Sameer found me on Facebook. Like I don't know a week or two after that party and messaged me and was like, hey, do you want to. Hang out he asked me if I wanted to go bowling with him. I wasn't really sure if I wanted to hang out with this person or not, but I didn't know that I [00:03:00] didn't want to. So we went out and tried to go bowling and there weren't any lanes up in and so that we went and just got ice cream in a store and sat at chatted and remember the I I didn't let him pay for my ice cream because I didn't want it to be a date.
So I paid for my own ice cream. We were walking. And it was right in front of my dorm and I think I like he's like, well, that was nice and I we hugged goodbye and then like as things work like you hug someone and then you're like coming out of the hug. There's a point when your faces are pretty close, and I think he kissed me then.
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SAMEER
After that date, I was like really into her. And so I would text her a lot and try to hang out with her and just not get responded. Basically, I was ghosted which is the millennial term for having somebody her stop [00:04:00] responding to your text messages. And so I was like, oh, okay cool. She's not interested. That's that's it. That's over.
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NARRATION
The first semester ended and second semester began and Anwen and Sameer both did recruitment for Greek life. Anwen joined a sorority and Sameer joined a fraternity which through the first big party of the semester. Anwen went to the party with a bunch of her friends and she knew she'd probably run into Sameer.
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ANWEN
I think we ran into each other going opposite directions coming. To the stairs and I think I said something about how like I was sorry that I had stopped talking to him suddenly
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SAMEER
and I was like, it's fine. Like you aren't ready for a relationship. I get it. It's cool. And then at some point later that night I saw her dancing on the dance floor and [00:05:00] I went up and I start dancing with her and I mean she started dancing back
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ANWEN
so we were dancing and like. Kind of like facing each other like doing the like. kind of awkward like prom groove thing and. I think at some point we flipped around to where my back was against the wall and I think that's what he kissed me.
at some point. I did kind of say like, okay, I want to go. And that was I was like, I don't see my friends. I want to go so he's like, okay. And I think walk to me upstairs to get my coat. At which point we discovered that the room was locked and all of my friends had left.
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NARRATION
What happened [00:06:00] was on one and her friends had put their stuff in one of the fraternity brothers rooms, her friends had all gotten their stuff and left but that room was now locked and the guy who lived there was nowhere to be found. So Anwen had no access to her keys or her phone or anything.
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ANWEN
Then I saw a couple guys who I knew were from my dorm. They weren't on my same floor, but I could at least get into the building. They were they were walking back. They were like just leaving the frat house. And so I said like hey, I'm just going to follow those guys home. And at that point Sameer said you can't just leave after kissing me like that.
I know that I was like I don't want to be in a relationship with you. I don't want to really be with you. But I was probably also trying to be nice and was like, but you're a great guy. I've really enjoyed talking to you. [00:07:00] But the this question arose like well, I don't know where I'm staying tonight. I can't get back into my dorm and he offered he offered that I could spend the night in his room.
I didn't want to spend the night in his room. Because I didn't want to have sex with them. And I didn't want to keep making out with him. But I didn't know where else to go.
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SAMEER
I had no condoms anymore because my jacket was also in that brother's room. So I was like, well, we're not going to have sex but I still would like to take her back home with me.
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ANWEN
It was like I had fog in my head. Like I couldn't figure out how to get out of the situation and I couldn't figure out how to say I don't like I don't want to sleep in your room because I didn't [00:08:00] know where else I could sleep.
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NARRATION
Before warned this next section contains sexually explicit material if you'd rather not hear it skip ahead to 13 minutes And 35 seconds.
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ANWEN
So we went back to his dorm room. We got to his dorm room and like as soon as we were inside he pushed me against the inside of the door and started kissing me. We ended up in his bed. and. I like. He kept kissing me. I was underneath him. He started to like put his hand at my crotch and like rubbed me hard and I was uncomfortable and. Didn't know what to do, and he was on top of me and I was just panicking.
And [00:09:00] I remember. He said oh fuck it would feel so good to fuck you. And I said, I don't want to have sex. And he laughed and his response was I know I don't have a condom anyway and went back to kissing me.
We maneuvered around I was sitting up. And he said take it off and I said what he says my like your shirt. And and I like started to pull up my shirt and as soon as he put his hand on my breast like it was just absolute revulsion in my body, and I said no and I pulled my shirt back down. [00:10:00] And I like curled up on his bed.
And I know that I was at that point like holding back tears. Like I hated the way his hand had felt on my breast. There was two beds and I was like, I would love to sleep in his roommates bed, but his roommate took like all the comforters and pillows.
and at some point he he like reached down. And like took my hand and put my hand over his cock. Like he still had his pants on but like he put my hand there and like started [00:11:00] moving my hand. And then he like took my hand away pulled down his pants put my hand back on him and said he doesn't bite and like like physically moved my hand up and down like grasping him.
And said something like wow you really you haven't done this before and I just I was like. curled up against him on the bed between him and the wall. He was huge compared to me. He has his hand around mine wrapped around his cock making me like give him a hand job. And then he said your mouth would feel even better.
And he like moved me and had his hand on the back of my head and started pushing my head down on [00:12:00] him and. just like down and down and down and I can remember feeling like I was gagging like I was choking. I think I started crying. This is both something. I had never experienced before and didn't want to be experiencing.
And I started crying or I was very close to crying and he finally let me up and he said it's okay. I'm hard to please. Let me just go finish up. And he left and he went to the bathroom and I can remember lying in his bed. Just like curled up thinking. I didn't fucking want to please you.
And he came back into the [00:13:00] room and he got back on the bed and like he put his arm over me. He pulled the covers up and he like laid like holding me and I didn't feel like I could move. I remembered looking across the room to the other bed and just wishing I could be on that that instead and holding back tears.
And. and I eventually I fell asleep.
For a couple days after that I just was like in a blur. I felt really disgusted. I like hurt between my legs where he'd been like rubbing me. I felt dirty and I didn't know what to do.
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NARRATION
At first [00:14:00] Anwen thought she had to start dating Sameer after spending the night in a guy's room. Isn't that what you're supposed to do?
Eventually, she goes to him again.
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SAMEER
Well, she had stopped responding to any text messages and didn't talk to me anymore. So I was like, okay. Well maybe that this is just a instance of like a really awkward hook up or series of hookups. That did not pan out, you know, sometimes when you hook up with somebody you become really awkward around them afterwards.
And it doesn't always come out like it does in the movies. On the porn for that matter.
I my [00:15:00] sophomore year was training to be an orientation leader to orient new students and transfer students to the university. And so one of the trainings that were involved was Green Dot.
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NARRATION
Green Dot bystander intervention is a program that teaches students how to respond to sexual assault on campus.
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SAMEER
The prompter said that its assaults when someone uses emotional manipulation to coerce somebody to like do sexual acts. like sexual assaults isn't just based on like using physical violence. and it's also just putting somebody in a situation where they feel like they can't say no. That night…was the first thing that popped into my head.
Wait, did I? Did I do this is this is who I am that [00:16:00] this happened like if it had did happen. Why why like does is that how Anwen feels about this? It's like well, no like you haven't been like like she would have reported something, but she hasn't.
Maybe she doesn't see it that way. Maybe she just also views it like I did where it was like a bad hookup and like I really awkward hook.
I was terrified that I assaulted her. I was terrified that I'd hurt her in this way. I was terrified of myself. Because if this was true and I did assault her then what did that make me? I was terrified of being found out. I was terrified of being sent to jail. I was terrified of all the consequences that come with that all the consequences that come with [00:17:00] sexual assault and rape
and I didn't have anybody that I was like who I could tell because like how how do I say? Hi. I think I think I assaulted and raped somebody, but I'm not entirely sure.
No, I did not tell anybody about this incident I kept it to myself. I knew that I wanted to learn more because at this if this like hour long training taught me all this. And then maybe I need to educate myself for.
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NARRATION
Sameer educated himself more he took a day long Green Dot training. He started reading about consent. He started asking his women friends about their perspectives on sex and [00:18:00] communication
Sameer used to think of sexual assault is something only perpetrated by shiftless strangers in dark alleys. Now he was seeing how sexual assault can happen between people who know each other even between people who've already been intimate with each other.
That whole year their sophomore year was rough for Anwen. She'd see or read something about sex or sexual assault and gets stuck replaying that night over and over again in her head and get hot and panicky and feel like she was gagging. She started dating someone but had a hard time with physical intimacy, especially around oral sex.
And she had trouble focusing on school and had to drop one of her classes because she knew she was going to fail.
So sophomore year ended and junior year began [00:19:00] and now Anwen decided to become an orientation leader. So she also took a Green Dot training and was also disillusioned from the idea that sexual assault is only committed by strangers in dark alleys and she also thought back to that night with Sameer.
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ANWEN
and like Oh my God. This this this wasn't just an awkward hookup. This wasn't right. This was this was assault.
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NARRATION
Anwen had been avoiding Sameer, but now she took it to a new level. She memorized his walking schedule to make sure she wouldn't cross paths with him. She always checked before entering the campus coffee shop and the main dining hall.
She always had part of her Awareness on patrol Duty.
But now [00:20:00] Anwen and Sameer were both orientation leaders, and eventually they ended up at the same orientation training off campus by the water.
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ANWEN
So I knew he was on the pier because he was doing like bioluminescence and. He was on the pier and I was on the pier and I think I kind of like had put myself in a corner just kind of watching and like waiting for when he came came by.
when he walked by. I said his name
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SAMEER
and I knew it was her but I was terrified turn around but I did and this is the first time she and I had spoken in over a year. Like since since freshman year and she asked if we could talk and I said, yes, of course.
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ANWEN
And I [00:21:00] said I want to talk about that night. And he said something along the lines of like let me make sure we're talking about the same thing.
Let me make sure we're on the same page the night you came home with me. And I said, yes. And then I said name that night.
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SAMEER
I stuttered and. I told her that I told her that I raped her.
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ANWEN
whoa.
It was. It was a powerful feeling to feel that I was not just crazy. And that he also [00:22:00] knew that it had been wrong.
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SAMEER
Yes, I knew it in my head. Yes. I knew it to myself but admitting it to the person I did it. It's just. Yeah, I mean. I hated myself. I wanted to kill myself. I asked her like hey, like do you want me to kill myself? Do you want me to like turn myself in to the police? Like what do you want? What what can I do?
I know I can't fix this but what can I do? I know I can't fix this but what can I do?
And that's when she offered to asked if we could talk more and I said, okay.
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NARRATION
so Anwen and Sameer started talking. She did initiate and they'd meet up [00:23:00] and try to piece together what happened that night and why and what to do about it. But over time it became too much for Anwen and she went back to avoiding Sameer.
Then came Take Back the Night.
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SAMEER
That was one of the weirdest night some of my college career
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NARRATION
take back the night is a March against sexual violence that happens on college campuses all over the world.
Anwen started avoiding Sameer again around the middle of their junior year.
at the beginning of their senior year, they both ended up at a Take Back the Night march on campus. Anwen was there as a survivor. Sameer was there as a support person for his new girlfriend who was also a survivor. The [00:24:00] March ended in an auditorium with an open mic where survivors were invited to come up and speak.
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ANWEN
It was I mean unrehearsed.
I walked up to the mic and started speaking pretty much and I kind of. Went through the story a little bit and more just like the emotions afterwards, but I didn't say his name and he was sitting in the audience right in front of me.
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SAMEER
I was actually sitting about 10 feet away from her. I tried really hard to keep myself together.I couldn't look her in the eye. But I felt like such a hypocrite.
But this is supposed to be a space that's meant for survivors and allies if you throw even a well-meaning perpetrator in there, does that negatively impact the movement itself?
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ANWEN
[00:25:00] I wanted to call him out. I really wanted to call him out. But I wanted him to be able to come forward on his own.
I wanted him to be able to be standing up there with me and speaking the story with me and be able to have the story be exposed in a way. That didn't just. Write us into the categories of like Angelic pure Survivor horrible evil assaulter.
Those things that make somebody assault those are things that we can overcome if we learn about them and people can acknowledge that they've done something wrong and grow from it and learn from it and be better people.
[00:26:00] and I think I actually said like.
If this person comes forward and tells his story, I hope that you'll listen to him.
I wanted to tell my story more. I wanted to tell people like I started feeling this this massive like need to have other people know and to have other people know that it was him that did it.
And then I went to Frank.
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NARRATION
Frank was the director of student conduct at Anwen and Sameer's university. So he's the guy you go to when a student is causing trouble cheating on exams or serving alcohol to minors or committing sexual assault. His job is to sit the student down have a conversation find out how bad the problem really is and then decide what to do about it.
Was there a policy violation? [00:27:00] should Frank set up a formal hearing with higher-ups in the administration to possibly get the student suspended or expelled? Anwen wanted help figuring out what to do about Sameer. And so she went to Frank.
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ANWEN
I started talking with him, I think about what I wanted and that I didn't want a formal proceeding.
I didn't want a verdict handed down. I wanted something to come out of it. I wanted it to be discussion and I wanted to decide with Sameer. What what the results were going to be and Frank took that and listenED to me and said something like well that sounds like restorative justice.
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NARRATION
We usually think of Justice in terms of punishment – did the person break a law or violate a campus policy? And if so, what is the punishment for that crime?
[00:28:00] restorative justice focuses on the harm that was caused. How was the victim impacted? What are their needs? What can the offender do to help make things better? So restorative justice is a response to Crime that engages offenders and victims in repairing the harm that was caused.
The goal is to find a resolution that achieves justsice for everyone involved: that achieves healing for victims and that allows offenders to take responsibility for their actions.
The idea is that because crime hurts Justice should heal.
Anwen didn't want a formal conduct process which would go through the University Administration and be entirely out of her hands and probably get Sameer suspended or expelled.
She knew that wouldn't do anything for her. Anwen wanted Sameer to take responsibility and to learn and grow and [00:29:00] prevent other men from inflicting that same pain. She wanted him to actually have to confront what he did. And to be part of figuring out what to do about it. So Frank opted for an informal conduct process meaning it was completely open-ended and he could use restorative justice.
Sameer agreed to participate.
Frank started by asking Anwen what she needed to repair the harm Sameer had caused her
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ANWEN
how I came up with the things I wanted from Sameer like really was just an accumulation of the years of thinking about it and just a inner knowledge of like this is what I need from this experience for this to be made right.
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NARRATION
One thing Anwen needed was for Sameer to understand the impact he had on her. [00:30:00] So Frank first, asked Sameer to write his testimony of what happened that night and then he gave Sameer Anwen’s testimony of what happened that night.
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SAMEER
so I sat down and. I read her perspective and so many things. Oh my God.
So many moments of that night that I had completely forgotten. I thought in my brain and I had asked her to take her shirt off. I didn't I told her. I did not remember emotionally manipulating her to coming back to to staying with me. I thought from my perspective. I was being a potential like teacher when it came to like oral sex turns out I was basically [00:31:00] coercing her into doing this even though she wasn't comfortable.
Like for my end, I was like, oh like this was just fun hook up, but then from her and it's like this guy is like pushing himself on me and. it didn't sound. Like me it sounded like a monster, but that was the hardest part. Was that like this this guy Who forced himself on to this girl is me.
I think. it was a combination of. desperation validation wanting to finally get the girl that I've [00:32:00] been after forever. I wanted to have fun and run around and just have a bunch of sex because like that's what I thought College was. Now, I wish I could just go back and talk to the kid. And she like hey, dude, like you're coming your hearts may be in a good place right now, but here are some things you need to know before you start engaging in sexual activities with other people that will prevent a lot of pain.
You’re a larger guy you can't you can't just go ahead and like ask for things And then like expect like people not to be intimidated by it. Like if it’s not an enthusiastic yes, don't do it.
I've made it [00:33:00] very difficult for her to enjoy many parts of intimacy. I absolutely terrified her for years. By being around. she would spend every day or at least once at some point almost every day. trapped in that that night and and basically reliving it and.
she's had to think about it every single day. And I'm not sure if the wounds are all the way healed. I doubt they are. The pain that I can't take away no matter what [00:34:00] I do. I can't take that away and.
I know I said it a thousand times. I am sorry.
I took a few minutes and processed. Like that's that's when everything finally clicked and I was like I read like I thought I understood before and then I read her testimony and then everything. Solidified itself for me. I was like, okay. This is what I done.
After I was done re-living in contemplating and frankly hating myself [00:35:00] Frank asked me. If there's anything in my testimony, I would like to change. I immediately said yes, and then I started going line by line through Anwen’s testimony and saying can I please add this to my testimony? Can I please add this to my testimony? and it was basically filling in my testimony with lots of details that I could not remember that I did remember now because I got to read it and got to relive it.
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ANWEN
It was scary. To basically be putting all of this hurt out on the table.
It was really important for me to have him know exactly what I felt. [00:36:00] And how big the impact was and how often the impact was. The the process gave me the chance to to really know that I was having an impact on him that that that my my feelings and my experience. Actually impacted the way he chose to continue living his life.
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NARRATION
The process Frank led Anwen and Sameer through had three phases that are typical of restorative justice:
First, the pre-conference – where Frank met separately with Anwen and Sameer for weeks piecing together a mutual understanding of what happened that night and working out what Sameer might do to address the harm. [00:37:00]
Second the conference – where Anwen and Sameer came together face-to-face with Frank carefully facilitating to talk through everything. Restorative Justice conferences aren't always face to face. But Anwen decided that she did want to meet with Sameer and this is where she got to ask him questions She still had: why did you do this? Couldn't you tell I was panicking? How do I know you're not going to do something like that again? And that's where Sameer got to answer those questions and tell Anwen about his repair plan: find ways to tell my story. write an article for the University magazine. make Green Dot training mandatory for All Greek letter organizations on campus. teach young men about consent.
Now they were in the third phase the post-conference [00:38:00] This is where Frank went back and forth between Anwen and Sameer while Sameer started doing the things on his repair plan.
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ANWEN: Did you send me yours? and I started chopping them together like just in a Word document timeline wise?
SAMEER: I think…
ANWEN: So I…
SAMEER: Go for it – sorry to interrupt
ANWEN: It was a collaborative effort
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NARRATION
that collaborative effort was a spoken word piece Anwen and Sameer created by taking their testimonies and splicing them together. They performed the piece for a group of students at a Green Dot training.
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ANWEN: It was pretty awkward.
SAMEER: Yeah, you could hear a pin drop.
ANWEN: Yeah, it was it was dead silent.
ANWEN + SAMEER: Um [LAUGHTER]
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NARRATION
So they [00:39:00] performed the spoken word piece and it was filmed and the video from it ended up becoming part of the training itself. So future students who took a Green Dot training got to see a video of Anwen and Sameer telling their story.
Sameer also wrote a piece for their college Magazine with his actual name on it.
And he started talking to his guy friends about consent
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SAMEER
I’ll ask one question and it will really throw them off. I'm like so like you enjoyed yourself? They’re like ya. I’m like did she enjoy herself? Like, of course she did. I'm like, how do you know? it's like well she did she did this is this… like did you ask her? and they're like no, why would I do that? like because it's good to communicate.
If I'm really comfortable with the friends, like I tell them to talk to their Partners about introducing different methods of communication while [00:40:00] participating in sexual acts so that their Partners know that they feel comfortable. like for example having a safe word to stop sexual sexual play, even if it's not super intense sometimes things happen. Sometimes people get triggered. Sometimes people just want to stop. And they want to be able to communicate that effectively, use the safe word. another great one that I've been told was like the stoplight system where like if one person doesn't like isn't opposed to what's happening. But wants things to ease up a little bit they say yellow and that is a sign for their other partner to be like, okay keep doing what you're doing, but ease up a little bit versus red is Like I need you to stop doing what you're doing. I'm not about that. And it's just these. Really easy like very easy to implement methods of communication that allow one, for better actual sex when you have it, and then two, prevent a lot of potential pain.
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NARRATION
As another part of his repair plan Sameer reached out to local [00:41:00] public high schools.
His idea was to share his story as part of their sex ed programs.
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SAMEER
My whole game plan was a go in and talk about it from my perspective. And I was hoping that me being able to bring up that explanation would be effective in hopefully guiding these these like young men into making better choices around consent and and like consensual sex, but explaining to schools that a guy who had committed sexual assault wants to come in and talk to their youth. Did not go over well with most schools administration's. because that's like oh like my kid got spoken to like a rapist came and spoke to my kid today and sex ed class did not go over well, and so that that project got scrapped [00:42:00] real fast.
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NARRATION
One of the things that strikes me most about Sameer is that he seems like such a normal guy. and such a morally complex guy. Remember: he went to take back the night as a support person for his girlfriend, Who was a Survivor.
and another thing: Frank who so carefully led Anwen in Sameer through their restorative justice process himself was a perpetrator of sexual harassment in college.
Sure, there are some unambiguous good guys and bad guys, but for the most part the picture is more complicated. people are going to have to change. and so, how [00:43:00] do people change?
well, we need models. We need models of men coming forward and taking responsibility and showing other men how to do that. We need Senator Al Franken the minute after the allegations broke owning up to what was true and announcing what he was going to do as US Senator to push for legislation on sexual misconduct.
We need Frank learning from his own experience and learning about restorative justice and applying all of that when dealing with cases of sexual assault on campus.
We actually do need Sameer talking to young men about what he did and how he's learned from it.
[00:44:00] #MeToo isn't just a Reckoning with sexual misconduct. It's a reckoning with how we deal with sexual misconduct.
It's a reckoning for Senator Franken and other high-profile perpetrators on the non-criminal side of things with how they are or in most cases are not using their positions of power to take leadership.
And for the rest of us, it's a reckoning with whether we make room for perpetrators to do that. whether – under the right circumstances – we make room for perpetrators to become allies.
This issue is so tough. It feels like there's almost nothing that can be said that will get everyone nodding. Some of you might be shaking your heads at the notion of letting perpetrators become allies. Some of [00:45:00] you might have not even made it all the way here in the story.
With this story, I did my best to offer something helpful. and something I find really helpful about restorative justice is that it invites me to keep my eyes on what I consider to be a very worthy prize: repairing the harm to the victim.
So in that spirit, let me put out an invitation. To keep your eyes on the prize of what you're ultimately trying to achieve:
What's your vision for serving Justice to perpetrators? And to Survivors?
What's your vision for the relationship between men and women in our society?
If what we're talking about is sexual abuse of power, what's your vision for Distributing power and negotiating consent and making all kinds of [00:46:00] negotiations from the bedroom to the boardroom?
What is your vision for the healthy expression of human sexuality?
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STEPHANIE
Are there things you feel like you can't say because our culture isn't ready for them?
like here like Anwen you. Like you yes, you've had a lot of time to not just a lot of time but have put in a lot of effort to working through this and. and you speak about it from a place that feels very empowered and also place it feels like kind of like matter of fact a little bit and do like do you ever feel like you need to [00:47:00] act more like a victim or act more like dramatic or act more in any way because that's kind of like what the cultural expectation of you is?
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ANWEN
so I actually had this thought this morning before this where I was like. should I be more upset? like do I do I start crying? like totally totally I have those thoughts, of like am I not representing this appropriately? and like Screw that!
the only reactions I've had to me speaking about it. Very matter-of-factly is like wow, you're so brave or like that's amazing. And that's actually a really hard response for me to deal with because. I mean, I guess it was Brave, but there wasn't any other option for me. It's [00:48:00] a weird thing to be praised for for doing something that I felt was necessary.
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NARRATION
So restorative justice is what Anwen felt was necessary, but what did that mean in terms of Retribution for Sameer? Well, he wasn't kicked off campus. He didn't go to jail. He did get a conduct reprimand, which is basically a strike on his academic record, but that didn't really affect him. And maybe a feels like he got off too easily.
Or that restorative justice is too lenient.
-
ANWEN
restorative justice is not lenient. You're forced to take a look at your innermost. Darkness. And I think that's one of the most difficult things a person can do is to confront their own shadow and come [00:49:00] face-to-face with themselves.
-
SAMEER
Every time that I've wanted to punish myself beyond all belief she always did know I want you to do better. Don’t just take the easy route and lock yourself up or get yourself kicked off campus because that's not going to help anybody. Cuz she never she never wanted to punish me. She wanted me to learn she wanted me to grow she wanted me to prevent this from ever happening.
-
ANWEN
I didn't want to take away his agency because that would just be reversing the roles.
I would say what's important to me the restorative justice process is that both people are given a space where they are empowered to make things better.
I want all of this to be [00:50:00] shared and I want. To speak out about it and I want to tell the story and I want to be telling the story with Sameer because it's so powerful to have both of us speaking, but it's really hard too.
I have a hard enough time telling this to friends. and the only reason I keep talking to people I keep doing things like this podcast like keep trying to find ways of sharing the stories because I think. it helps people. I want to provide an example of an instance of. Rape from which you can really see that both people are human and both people are more than their actions and [00:51:00] can grow.
-
ANWEN: We will occasionally like FaceTime. I'm just like catch up.
SAMEER: Yeah, yeah. Just like kind of check in every once in a while. I don't know it's a fairly casual but like like kind of conversation relationship word interaction thing. I don't know.
ANWEN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's also funny because one of the things I realized actually I think during and after the restorative justice process is that Sameer's honestly one of the people that knows me. Best and I him very very well too because like okay, we know each other's like deepest horrible moment, huh, right sickly. And and so there's there's not a lot. That can't be said.
SAMEER: Yeah. I hear you're pretty spot-on about that.
STEPHANIE: Wow.
ANWEN: Yeah like yeah. I I [00:52:00] don't think I'll ever lose contact entirely with Sameer.
-
NARRATION
Anwen and Sameer also haven't lost contact with Frank.
Sameer graduated in 2016 with a degree in Psychology and a focus on how relationship problems affect the physiological body today. He's figuring out what he wants to do with that while working as a bartender and serving water with every drink
Anwen graduated that same year in international political economy and French. She's now launching a business doing custom clothing design for the type of swing dance. She loves to do and she's. Able to say that now days will go by in which he doesn't think at all about that night.
Anwen in Sameer went public to their University, [00:53:00] but they haven't really gone public beyond that which is why we didn't use their real names. Anwen wants to include a link to this episode on her Facebook page. So whichever of her Facebook friends click on it will hear her story. I'll let you know. What happened. That in the next episode.
And I should mention restorative justice doesn't necessarily work in all circumstances. Most importantly the Survivor has to want it and the offender has to be willing to do it.
and restorative justice can absolutely go hand-in-hand with traditional criminal justice just because someone got expelled or sent to jail doesn't mean they can't work to. Are the harm they caused.
Okay, so I have to ask you something. Is this your first reckonings episode and you were turned on to the show by this topic? [00:54:00] If so, my new friend keep going start with the most recent episodes and work your way backwards. If not, and you're a regular around these parts. Let me ask you something else. How about recommending reckonings to one person who you think would enjoy it?
And here is a share of my own.
-
MIKE
Hey, this is Mike from everything is stories. writer Harry Crews once wrote. Nothing is allowed to die in a society of Storytelling people like him. We believe story shape reality a tricky thing to express because reality is both harmonious and chaotic. However, a good story captures it all the Rhythm and the Drone of experience every episode of EIS features a narrative from the first person perspective these voices of told of their greatest moments were death is very close and where peace is only found in Seclusion. Sometimes they explore the philosophy of drifters and Outsiders most importantly these stories examine what it is to be human. Take a listen. You may find a definition for realities [00:55:00] highs and lows. find us on iTunes or anywhere else you subscribe to podcast or find out more on our website: EISradio.org
-
NARRATION
Some heartfelt thank yous:
to The Friend Foundation and Varda Rabin for their generous support
To David Karp for helping in a million ways including connecting me with Anwen and Sameer,
To Frank for leading them through their transformative restorative justice process,
To The Campus PRISM Project for being a major resource for Frank, and more broadly, for helping universities explore the possibility of applying restorative justice to sexual misconduct
And to the brilliant folks who gave their insights: Helena de Groot, Vika Aronson, Keeli Sorensen, Tod Augusta-Scott, and Stephanie Guthrie and the team at A Better Man
And last but not least, thank you to our friends on Patreon:
Don’t you want to be on this list?
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Dan Weissman
Trevor Stutz
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Kenny Alston
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I’m Stephanie Lepp and if you made it all the way here, lemme give one more thank you to YOU for listening to Reckonings :)
Note: Transcripts may contain errors, and audio should be checked before quoting in print.
[00:00:00]
NARRATION
This is reckonings. I'm Stephanie Lepp and I'm not going to say very much about this episode except for the fact that I've been wanting to do it for over a year. So I am so grateful to have found Anwen and Sameer. Not their real names. And with that here is Sameer.
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SAMEER
I think it was Modern Warfare 2 was the first one I ever picked up which was like back in 2010 or something. But basically FPS first person shooter video games. That's what I would spend nights like literal weekends saying up until 4:00 5:00 in the morning and was your typical just like I don't want to talk to anybody. Just play my video games kind of teenager.
-
NARRATION
And here is Anwen.
-
ANWEN
So Lindy Hop is a vintage swing dance. It has its roots in the African-American music that grew [00:01:00] out of the 20s and 30s. It's just alive and joyous and there's a lot of improvisation. So that's what I was doing. As many nights a week as I could in high school.
I think the first time I saw Sameer was a party called the end of the world party or something like that first semester freshman year off campus house. Lots of people there was definitely alcohol there. I didn't have any. he was wearing I think like a gray. Sure, I think he was wearing like a black tie to he was kind of dressed up. He might have been he might have had like suspenders on. very tall and pretty like broad too.
-
SAMEER
truthfully was her eyes. Anwen has these fantastic pair of [00:02:00] eyes and just very friendly smile.
-
ANWEN
we got introduced and then he said hey, do you want to dance and I said well something along the lines of sure as long as it's not that like bumping and grinding type of dancing like I'd swing dance and so he's like, okay I know a little bit of Swing.
-
SAMEER
By a little bit. I mean like little to no swing but I was willing to learn if I could talk to this to this girl Anwen.
-
ANWEN
Sameer found me on Facebook. Like I don't know a week or two after that party and messaged me and was like, hey, do you want to. Hang out he asked me if I wanted to go bowling with him. I wasn't really sure if I wanted to hang out with this person or not, but I didn't know that I [00:03:00] didn't want to. So we went out and tried to go bowling and there weren't any lanes up in and so that we went and just got ice cream in a store and sat at chatted and remember the I I didn't let him pay for my ice cream because I didn't want it to be a date.
So I paid for my own ice cream. We were walking. And it was right in front of my dorm and I think I like he's like, well, that was nice and I we hugged goodbye and then like as things work like you hug someone and then you're like coming out of the hug. There's a point when your faces are pretty close, and I think he kissed me then.
-
SAMEER
After that date, I was like really into her. And so I would text her a lot and try to hang out with her and just not get responded. Basically, I was ghosted which is the millennial term for having somebody her stop [00:04:00] responding to your text messages. And so I was like, oh, okay cool. She's not interested. That's that's it. That's over.
-
NARRATION
The first semester ended and second semester began and Anwen and Sameer both did recruitment for Greek life. Anwen joined a sorority and Sameer joined a fraternity which through the first big party of the semester. Anwen went to the party with a bunch of her friends and she knew she'd probably run into Sameer.
-
ANWEN
I think we ran into each other going opposite directions coming. To the stairs and I think I said something about how like I was sorry that I had stopped talking to him suddenly
-
SAMEER
and I was like, it's fine. Like you aren't ready for a relationship. I get it. It's cool. And then at some point later that night I saw her dancing on the dance floor and [00:05:00] I went up and I start dancing with her and I mean she started dancing back
-
ANWEN
so we were dancing and like. Kind of like facing each other like doing the like. kind of awkward like prom groove thing and. I think at some point we flipped around to where my back was against the wall and I think that's what he kissed me.
at some point. I did kind of say like, okay, I want to go. And that was I was like, I don't see my friends. I want to go so he's like, okay. And I think walk to me upstairs to get my coat. At which point we discovered that the room was locked and all of my friends had left.
-
NARRATION
What happened [00:06:00] was on one and her friends had put their stuff in one of the fraternity brothers rooms, her friends had all gotten their stuff and left but that room was now locked and the guy who lived there was nowhere to be found. So Anwen had no access to her keys or her phone or anything.
-
ANWEN
Then I saw a couple guys who I knew were from my dorm. They weren't on my same floor, but I could at least get into the building. They were they were walking back. They were like just leaving the frat house. And so I said like hey, I'm just going to follow those guys home. And at that point Sameer said you can't just leave after kissing me like that.
I know that I was like I don't want to be in a relationship with you. I don't want to really be with you. But I was probably also trying to be nice and was like, but you're a great guy. I've really enjoyed talking to you. [00:07:00] But the this question arose like well, I don't know where I'm staying tonight. I can't get back into my dorm and he offered he offered that I could spend the night in his room.
I didn't want to spend the night in his room. Because I didn't want to have sex with them. And I didn't want to keep making out with him. But I didn't know where else to go.
-
SAMEER
I had no condoms anymore because my jacket was also in that brother's room. So I was like, well, we're not going to have sex but I still would like to take her back home with me.
-
ANWEN
It was like I had fog in my head. Like I couldn't figure out how to get out of the situation and I couldn't figure out how to say I don't like I don't want to sleep in your room because I didn't [00:08:00] know where else I could sleep.
-
NARRATION
Before warned this next section contains sexually explicit material if you'd rather not hear it skip ahead to 13 minutes And 35 seconds.
-
ANWEN
So we went back to his dorm room. We got to his dorm room and like as soon as we were inside he pushed me against the inside of the door and started kissing me. We ended up in his bed. and. I like. He kept kissing me. I was underneath him. He started to like put his hand at my crotch and like rubbed me hard and I was uncomfortable and. Didn't know what to do, and he was on top of me and I was just panicking.
And [00:09:00] I remember. He said oh fuck it would feel so good to fuck you. And I said, I don't want to have sex. And he laughed and his response was I know I don't have a condom anyway and went back to kissing me.
We maneuvered around I was sitting up. And he said take it off and I said what he says my like your shirt. And and I like started to pull up my shirt and as soon as he put his hand on my breast like it was just absolute revulsion in my body, and I said no and I pulled my shirt back down. [00:10:00] And I like curled up on his bed.
And I know that I was at that point like holding back tears. Like I hated the way his hand had felt on my breast. There was two beds and I was like, I would love to sleep in his roommates bed, but his roommate took like all the comforters and pillows.
and at some point he he like reached down. And like took my hand and put my hand over his cock. Like he still had his pants on but like he put my hand there and like started [00:11:00] moving my hand. And then he like took my hand away pulled down his pants put my hand back on him and said he doesn't bite and like like physically moved my hand up and down like grasping him.
And said something like wow you really you haven't done this before and I just I was like. curled up against him on the bed between him and the wall. He was huge compared to me. He has his hand around mine wrapped around his cock making me like give him a hand job. And then he said your mouth would feel even better.
And he like moved me and had his hand on the back of my head and started pushing my head down on [00:12:00] him and. just like down and down and down and I can remember feeling like I was gagging like I was choking. I think I started crying. This is both something. I had never experienced before and didn't want to be experiencing.
And I started crying or I was very close to crying and he finally let me up and he said it's okay. I'm hard to please. Let me just go finish up. And he left and he went to the bathroom and I can remember lying in his bed. Just like curled up thinking. I didn't fucking want to please you.
And he came back into the [00:13:00] room and he got back on the bed and like he put his arm over me. He pulled the covers up and he like laid like holding me and I didn't feel like I could move. I remembered looking across the room to the other bed and just wishing I could be on that that instead and holding back tears.
And. and I eventually I fell asleep.
For a couple days after that I just was like in a blur. I felt really disgusted. I like hurt between my legs where he'd been like rubbing me. I felt dirty and I didn't know what to do.
-
NARRATION
At first [00:14:00] Anwen thought she had to start dating Sameer after spending the night in a guy's room. Isn't that what you're supposed to do?
Eventually, she goes to him again.
-
SAMEER
Well, she had stopped responding to any text messages and didn't talk to me anymore. So I was like, okay. Well maybe that this is just a instance of like a really awkward hook up or series of hookups. That did not pan out, you know, sometimes when you hook up with somebody you become really awkward around them afterwards.
And it doesn't always come out like it does in the movies. On the porn for that matter.
I my [00:15:00] sophomore year was training to be an orientation leader to orient new students and transfer students to the university. And so one of the trainings that were involved was Green Dot.
-
NARRATION
Green Dot bystander intervention is a program that teaches students how to respond to sexual assault on campus.
-
SAMEER
The prompter said that its assaults when someone uses emotional manipulation to coerce somebody to like do sexual acts. like sexual assaults isn't just based on like using physical violence. and it's also just putting somebody in a situation where they feel like they can't say no. That night…was the first thing that popped into my head.
Wait, did I? Did I do this is this is who I am that [00:16:00] this happened like if it had did happen. Why why like does is that how Anwen feels about this? It's like well, no like you haven't been like like she would have reported something, but she hasn't.
Maybe she doesn't see it that way. Maybe she just also views it like I did where it was like a bad hookup and like I really awkward hook.
I was terrified that I assaulted her. I was terrified that I'd hurt her in this way. I was terrified of myself. Because if this was true and I did assault her then what did that make me? I was terrified of being found out. I was terrified of being sent to jail. I was terrified of all the consequences that come with that all the consequences that come with [00:17:00] sexual assault and rape
and I didn't have anybody that I was like who I could tell because like how how do I say? Hi. I think I think I assaulted and raped somebody, but I'm not entirely sure.
No, I did not tell anybody about this incident I kept it to myself. I knew that I wanted to learn more because at this if this like hour long training taught me all this. And then maybe I need to educate myself for.
-
NARRATION
Sameer educated himself more he took a day long Green Dot training. He started reading about consent. He started asking his women friends about their perspectives on sex and [00:18:00] communication
Sameer used to think of sexual assault is something only perpetrated by shiftless strangers in dark alleys. Now he was seeing how sexual assault can happen between people who know each other even between people who've already been intimate with each other.
That whole year their sophomore year was rough for Anwen. She'd see or read something about sex or sexual assault and gets stuck replaying that night over and over again in her head and get hot and panicky and feel like she was gagging. She started dating someone but had a hard time with physical intimacy, especially around oral sex.
And she had trouble focusing on school and had to drop one of her classes because she knew she was going to fail.
So sophomore year ended and junior year began [00:19:00] and now Anwen decided to become an orientation leader. So she also took a Green Dot training and was also disillusioned from the idea that sexual assault is only committed by strangers in dark alleys and she also thought back to that night with Sameer.
-
ANWEN
and like Oh my God. This this this wasn't just an awkward hookup. This wasn't right. This was this was assault.
-
NARRATION
Anwen had been avoiding Sameer, but now she took it to a new level. She memorized his walking schedule to make sure she wouldn't cross paths with him. She always checked before entering the campus coffee shop and the main dining hall.
She always had part of her Awareness on patrol Duty.
But now [00:20:00] Anwen and Sameer were both orientation leaders, and eventually they ended up at the same orientation training off campus by the water.
-
ANWEN
So I knew he was on the pier because he was doing like bioluminescence and. He was on the pier and I was on the pier and I think I kind of like had put myself in a corner just kind of watching and like waiting for when he came came by.
when he walked by. I said his name
-
SAMEER
and I knew it was her but I was terrified turn around but I did and this is the first time she and I had spoken in over a year. Like since since freshman year and she asked if we could talk and I said, yes, of course.
-
ANWEN
And I [00:21:00] said I want to talk about that night. And he said something along the lines of like let me make sure we're talking about the same thing.
Let me make sure we're on the same page the night you came home with me. And I said, yes. And then I said name that night.
-
SAMEER
I stuttered and. I told her that I told her that I raped her.
-
ANWEN
whoa.
It was. It was a powerful feeling to feel that I was not just crazy. And that he also [00:22:00] knew that it had been wrong.
-
SAMEER
Yes, I knew it in my head. Yes. I knew it to myself but admitting it to the person I did it. It's just. Yeah, I mean. I hated myself. I wanted to kill myself. I asked her like hey, like do you want me to kill myself? Do you want me to like turn myself in to the police? Like what do you want? What what can I do?
I know I can't fix this but what can I do? I know I can't fix this but what can I do?
And that's when she offered to asked if we could talk more and I said, okay.
-
NARRATION
so Anwen and Sameer started talking. She did initiate and they'd meet up [00:23:00] and try to piece together what happened that night and why and what to do about it. But over time it became too much for Anwen and she went back to avoiding Sameer.
Then came Take Back the Night.
-
SAMEER
That was one of the weirdest night some of my college career
-
NARRATION
take back the night is a March against sexual violence that happens on college campuses all over the world.
Anwen started avoiding Sameer again around the middle of their junior year.
at the beginning of their senior year, they both ended up at a Take Back the Night march on campus. Anwen was there as a survivor. Sameer was there as a support person for his new girlfriend who was also a survivor. The [00:24:00] March ended in an auditorium with an open mic where survivors were invited to come up and speak.
-
ANWEN
It was I mean unrehearsed.
I walked up to the mic and started speaking pretty much and I kind of. Went through the story a little bit and more just like the emotions afterwards, but I didn't say his name and he was sitting in the audience right in front of me.
-
SAMEER
I was actually sitting about 10 feet away from her. I tried really hard to keep myself together.I couldn't look her in the eye. But I felt like such a hypocrite.
But this is supposed to be a space that's meant for survivors and allies if you throw even a well-meaning perpetrator in there, does that negatively impact the movement itself?
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ANWEN
[00:25:00] I wanted to call him out. I really wanted to call him out. But I wanted him to be able to come forward on his own.
I wanted him to be able to be standing up there with me and speaking the story with me and be able to have the story be exposed in a way. That didn't just. Write us into the categories of like Angelic pure Survivor horrible evil assaulter.
Those things that make somebody assault those are things that we can overcome if we learn about them and people can acknowledge that they've done something wrong and grow from it and learn from it and be better people.
[00:26:00] and I think I actually said like.
If this person comes forward and tells his story, I hope that you'll listen to him.
I wanted to tell my story more. I wanted to tell people like I started feeling this this massive like need to have other people know and to have other people know that it was him that did it.
And then I went to Frank.
-
NARRATION
Frank was the director of student conduct at Anwen and Sameer's university. So he's the guy you go to when a student is causing trouble cheating on exams or serving alcohol to minors or committing sexual assault. His job is to sit the student down have a conversation find out how bad the problem really is and then decide what to do about it.
Was there a policy violation? [00:27:00] should Frank set up a formal hearing with higher-ups in the administration to possibly get the student suspended or expelled? Anwen wanted help figuring out what to do about Sameer. And so she went to Frank.
-
ANWEN
I started talking with him, I think about what I wanted and that I didn't want a formal proceeding.
I didn't want a verdict handed down. I wanted something to come out of it. I wanted it to be discussion and I wanted to decide with Sameer. What what the results were going to be and Frank took that and listenED to me and said something like well that sounds like restorative justice.
-
NARRATION
We usually think of Justice in terms of punishment – did the person break a law or violate a campus policy? And if so, what is the punishment for that crime?
[00:28:00] restorative justice focuses on the harm that was caused. How was the victim impacted? What are their needs? What can the offender do to help make things better? So restorative justice is a response to Crime that engages offenders and victims in repairing the harm that was caused.
The goal is to find a resolution that achieves justsice for everyone involved: that achieves healing for victims and that allows offenders to take responsibility for their actions.
The idea is that because crime hurts Justice should heal.
Anwen didn't want a formal conduct process which would go through the University Administration and be entirely out of her hands and probably get Sameer suspended or expelled.
She knew that wouldn't do anything for her. Anwen wanted Sameer to take responsibility and to learn and grow and [00:29:00] prevent other men from inflicting that same pain. She wanted him to actually have to confront what he did. And to be part of figuring out what to do about it. So Frank opted for an informal conduct process meaning it was completely open-ended and he could use restorative justice.
Sameer agreed to participate.
Frank started by asking Anwen what she needed to repair the harm Sameer had caused her
-
ANWEN
how I came up with the things I wanted from Sameer like really was just an accumulation of the years of thinking about it and just a inner knowledge of like this is what I need from this experience for this to be made right.
-
NARRATION
One thing Anwen needed was for Sameer to understand the impact he had on her. [00:30:00] So Frank first, asked Sameer to write his testimony of what happened that night and then he gave Sameer Anwen’s testimony of what happened that night.
-
SAMEER
so I sat down and. I read her perspective and so many things. Oh my God.
So many moments of that night that I had completely forgotten. I thought in my brain and I had asked her to take her shirt off. I didn't I told her. I did not remember emotionally manipulating her to coming back to to staying with me. I thought from my perspective. I was being a potential like teacher when it came to like oral sex turns out I was basically [00:31:00] coercing her into doing this even though she wasn't comfortable.
Like for my end, I was like, oh like this was just fun hook up, but then from her and it's like this guy is like pushing himself on me and. it didn't sound. Like me it sounded like a monster, but that was the hardest part. Was that like this this guy Who forced himself on to this girl is me.
I think. it was a combination of. desperation validation wanting to finally get the girl that I've [00:32:00] been after forever. I wanted to have fun and run around and just have a bunch of sex because like that's what I thought College was. Now, I wish I could just go back and talk to the kid. And she like hey, dude, like you're coming your hearts may be in a good place right now, but here are some things you need to know before you start engaging in sexual activities with other people that will prevent a lot of pain.
You’re a larger guy you can't you can't just go ahead and like ask for things And then like expect like people not to be intimidated by it. Like if it’s not an enthusiastic yes, don't do it.
I've made it [00:33:00] very difficult for her to enjoy many parts of intimacy. I absolutely terrified her for years. By being around. she would spend every day or at least once at some point almost every day. trapped in that that night and and basically reliving it and.
she's had to think about it every single day. And I'm not sure if the wounds are all the way healed. I doubt they are. The pain that I can't take away no matter what [00:34:00] I do. I can't take that away and.
I know I said it a thousand times. I am sorry.
I took a few minutes and processed. Like that's that's when everything finally clicked and I was like I read like I thought I understood before and then I read her testimony and then everything. Solidified itself for me. I was like, okay. This is what I done.
After I was done re-living in contemplating and frankly hating myself [00:35:00] Frank asked me. If there's anything in my testimony, I would like to change. I immediately said yes, and then I started going line by line through Anwen’s testimony and saying can I please add this to my testimony? Can I please add this to my testimony? and it was basically filling in my testimony with lots of details that I could not remember that I did remember now because I got to read it and got to relive it.
-
ANWEN
It was scary. To basically be putting all of this hurt out on the table.
It was really important for me to have him know exactly what I felt. [00:36:00] And how big the impact was and how often the impact was. The the process gave me the chance to to really know that I was having an impact on him that that that my my feelings and my experience. Actually impacted the way he chose to continue living his life.
-
NARRATION
The process Frank led Anwen and Sameer through had three phases that are typical of restorative justice:
First, the pre-conference – where Frank met separately with Anwen and Sameer for weeks piecing together a mutual understanding of what happened that night and working out what Sameer might do to address the harm. [00:37:00]
Second the conference – where Anwen and Sameer came together face-to-face with Frank carefully facilitating to talk through everything. Restorative Justice conferences aren't always face to face. But Anwen decided that she did want to meet with Sameer and this is where she got to ask him questions She still had: why did you do this? Couldn't you tell I was panicking? How do I know you're not going to do something like that again? And that's where Sameer got to answer those questions and tell Anwen about his repair plan: find ways to tell my story. write an article for the University magazine. make Green Dot training mandatory for All Greek letter organizations on campus. teach young men about consent.
Now they were in the third phase the post-conference [00:38:00] This is where Frank went back and forth between Anwen and Sameer while Sameer started doing the things on his repair plan.
-
ANWEN: Did you send me yours? and I started chopping them together like just in a Word document timeline wise?
SAMEER: I think…
ANWEN: So I…
SAMEER: Go for it – sorry to interrupt
ANWEN: It was a collaborative effort
-
NARRATION
that collaborative effort was a spoken word piece Anwen and Sameer created by taking their testimonies and splicing them together. They performed the piece for a group of students at a Green Dot training.
-
ANWEN: It was pretty awkward.
SAMEER: Yeah, you could hear a pin drop.
ANWEN: Yeah, it was it was dead silent.
ANWEN + SAMEER: Um [LAUGHTER]
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NARRATION
So they [00:39:00] performed the spoken word piece and it was filmed and the video from it ended up becoming part of the training itself. So future students who took a Green Dot training got to see a video of Anwen and Sameer telling their story.
Sameer also wrote a piece for their college Magazine with his actual name on it.
And he started talking to his guy friends about consent
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SAMEER
I’ll ask one question and it will really throw them off. I'm like so like you enjoyed yourself? They’re like ya. I’m like did she enjoy herself? Like, of course she did. I'm like, how do you know? it's like well she did she did this is this… like did you ask her? and they're like no, why would I do that? like because it's good to communicate.
If I'm really comfortable with the friends, like I tell them to talk to their Partners about introducing different methods of communication while [00:40:00] participating in sexual acts so that their Partners know that they feel comfortable. like for example having a safe word to stop sexual sexual play, even if it's not super intense sometimes things happen. Sometimes people get triggered. Sometimes people just want to stop. And they want to be able to communicate that effectively, use the safe word. another great one that I've been told was like the stoplight system where like if one person doesn't like isn't opposed to what's happening. But wants things to ease up a little bit they say yellow and that is a sign for their other partner to be like, okay keep doing what you're doing, but ease up a little bit versus red is Like I need you to stop doing what you're doing. I'm not about that. And it's just these. Really easy like very easy to implement methods of communication that allow one, for better actual sex when you have it, and then two, prevent a lot of potential pain.
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NARRATION
As another part of his repair plan Sameer reached out to local [00:41:00] public high schools.
His idea was to share his story as part of their sex ed programs.
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SAMEER
My whole game plan was a go in and talk about it from my perspective. And I was hoping that me being able to bring up that explanation would be effective in hopefully guiding these these like young men into making better choices around consent and and like consensual sex, but explaining to schools that a guy who had committed sexual assault wants to come in and talk to their youth. Did not go over well with most schools administration's. because that's like oh like my kid got spoken to like a rapist came and spoke to my kid today and sex ed class did not go over well, and so that that project got scrapped [00:42:00] real fast.
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NARRATION
One of the things that strikes me most about Sameer is that he seems like such a normal guy. and such a morally complex guy. Remember: he went to take back the night as a support person for his girlfriend, Who was a Survivor.
and another thing: Frank who so carefully led Anwen in Sameer through their restorative justice process himself was a perpetrator of sexual harassment in college.
Sure, there are some unambiguous good guys and bad guys, but for the most part the picture is more complicated. people are going to have to change. and so, how [00:43:00] do people change?
well, we need models. We need models of men coming forward and taking responsibility and showing other men how to do that. We need Senator Al Franken the minute after the allegations broke owning up to what was true and announcing what he was going to do as US Senator to push for legislation on sexual misconduct.
We need Frank learning from his own experience and learning about restorative justice and applying all of that when dealing with cases of sexual assault on campus.
We actually do need Sameer talking to young men about what he did and how he's learned from it.
[00:44:00] #MeToo isn't just a Reckoning with sexual misconduct. It's a reckoning with how we deal with sexual misconduct.
It's a reckoning for Senator Franken and other high-profile perpetrators on the non-criminal side of things with how they are or in most cases are not using their positions of power to take leadership.
And for the rest of us, it's a reckoning with whether we make room for perpetrators to do that. whether – under the right circumstances – we make room for perpetrators to become allies.
This issue is so tough. It feels like there's almost nothing that can be said that will get everyone nodding. Some of you might be shaking your heads at the notion of letting perpetrators become allies. Some of [00:45:00] you might have not even made it all the way here in the story.
With this story, I did my best to offer something helpful. and something I find really helpful about restorative justice is that it invites me to keep my eyes on what I consider to be a very worthy prize: repairing the harm to the victim.
So in that spirit, let me put out an invitation. To keep your eyes on the prize of what you're ultimately trying to achieve:
What's your vision for serving Justice to perpetrators? And to Survivors?
What's your vision for the relationship between men and women in our society?
If what we're talking about is sexual abuse of power, what's your vision for Distributing power and negotiating consent and making all kinds of [00:46:00] negotiations from the bedroom to the boardroom?
What is your vision for the healthy expression of human sexuality?
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STEPHANIE
Are there things you feel like you can't say because our culture isn't ready for them?
like here like Anwen you. Like you yes, you've had a lot of time to not just a lot of time but have put in a lot of effort to working through this and. and you speak about it from a place that feels very empowered and also place it feels like kind of like matter of fact a little bit and do like do you ever feel like you need to [00:47:00] act more like a victim or act more like dramatic or act more in any way because that's kind of like what the cultural expectation of you is?
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ANWEN
so I actually had this thought this morning before this where I was like. should I be more upset? like do I do I start crying? like totally totally I have those thoughts, of like am I not representing this appropriately? and like Screw that!
the only reactions I've had to me speaking about it. Very matter-of-factly is like wow, you're so brave or like that's amazing. And that's actually a really hard response for me to deal with because. I mean, I guess it was Brave, but there wasn't any other option for me. It's [00:48:00] a weird thing to be praised for for doing something that I felt was necessary.
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NARRATION
So restorative justice is what Anwen felt was necessary, but what did that mean in terms of Retribution for Sameer? Well, he wasn't kicked off campus. He didn't go to jail. He did get a conduct reprimand, which is basically a strike on his academic record, but that didn't really affect him. And maybe a feels like he got off too easily.
Or that restorative justice is too lenient.
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ANWEN
restorative justice is not lenient. You're forced to take a look at your innermost. Darkness. And I think that's one of the most difficult things a person can do is to confront their own shadow and come [00:49:00] face-to-face with themselves.
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SAMEER
Every time that I've wanted to punish myself beyond all belief she always did know I want you to do better. Don’t just take the easy route and lock yourself up or get yourself kicked off campus because that's not going to help anybody. Cuz she never she never wanted to punish me. She wanted me to learn she wanted me to grow she wanted me to prevent this from ever happening.
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ANWEN
I didn't want to take away his agency because that would just be reversing the roles.
I would say what's important to me the restorative justice process is that both people are given a space where they are empowered to make things better.
I want all of this to be [00:50:00] shared and I want. To speak out about it and I want to tell the story and I want to be telling the story with Sameer because it's so powerful to have both of us speaking, but it's really hard too.
I have a hard enough time telling this to friends. and the only reason I keep talking to people I keep doing things like this podcast like keep trying to find ways of sharing the stories because I think. it helps people. I want to provide an example of an instance of. Rape from which you can really see that both people are human and both people are more than their actions and [00:51:00] can grow.
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ANWEN: We will occasionally like FaceTime. I'm just like catch up.
SAMEER: Yeah, yeah. Just like kind of check in every once in a while. I don't know it's a fairly casual but like like kind of conversation relationship word interaction thing. I don't know.
ANWEN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's also funny because one of the things I realized actually I think during and after the restorative justice process is that Sameer's honestly one of the people that knows me. Best and I him very very well too because like okay, we know each other's like deepest horrible moment, huh, right sickly. And and so there's there's not a lot. That can't be said.
SAMEER: Yeah. I hear you're pretty spot-on about that.
STEPHANIE: Wow.
ANWEN: Yeah like yeah. I I [00:52:00] don't think I'll ever lose contact entirely with Sameer.
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NARRATION
Anwen and Sameer also haven't lost contact with Frank.
Sameer graduated in 2016 with a degree in Psychology and a focus on how relationship problems affect the physiological body today. He's figuring out what he wants to do with that while working as a bartender and serving water with every drink
Anwen graduated that same year in international political economy and French. She's now launching a business doing custom clothing design for the type of swing dance. She loves to do and she's. Able to say that now days will go by in which he doesn't think at all about that night.
Anwen in Sameer went public to their University, [00:53:00] but they haven't really gone public beyond that which is why we didn't use their real names. Anwen wants to include a link to this episode on her Facebook page. So whichever of her Facebook friends click on it will hear her story. I'll let you know. What happened. That in the next episode.
And I should mention restorative justice doesn't necessarily work in all circumstances. Most importantly the Survivor has to want it and the offender has to be willing to do it.
and restorative justice can absolutely go hand-in-hand with traditional criminal justice just because someone got expelled or sent to jail doesn't mean they can't work to. Are the harm they caused.
Okay, so I have to ask you something. Is this your first reckonings episode and you were turned on to the show by this topic? [00:54:00] If so, my new friend keep going start with the most recent episodes and work your way backwards. If not, and you're a regular around these parts. Let me ask you something else. How about recommending reckonings to one person who you think would enjoy it?
And here is a share of my own.
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MIKE
Hey, this is Mike from everything is stories. writer Harry Crews once wrote. Nothing is allowed to die in a society of Storytelling people like him. We believe story shape reality a tricky thing to express because reality is both harmonious and chaotic. However, a good story captures it all the Rhythm and the Drone of experience every episode of EIS features a narrative from the first person perspective these voices of told of their greatest moments were death is very close and where peace is only found in Seclusion. Sometimes they explore the philosophy of drifters and Outsiders most importantly these stories examine what it is to be human. Take a listen. You may find a definition for realities [00:55:00] highs and lows. find us on iTunes or anywhere else you subscribe to podcast or find out more on our website: EISradio.org
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NARRATION
Some heartfelt thank yous:
to The Friend Foundation and Varda Rabin for their generous support
To David Karp for helping in a million ways including connecting me with Anwen and Sameer,
To Frank for leading them through their transformative restorative justice process,
To The Campus PRISM Project for being a major resource for Frank, and more broadly, for helping universities explore the possibility of applying restorative justice to sexual misconduct
And to the brilliant folks who gave their insights: Helena de Groot, Vika Aronson, Keeli Sorensen, Tod Augusta-Scott, and Stephanie Guthrie and the team at A Better Man
And last but not least, thank you to our friends on Patreon:
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I’m Stephanie Lepp and if you made it all the way here, lemme give one more thank you to YOU for listening to Reckonings :)