#19 || HOW WILL WE BECOME MAJESTIC ELEPHANTS?
TRANSCRIPT
Note: Reckonings is produced to be heard, not read. The audio includes emotion and emphasis unavailable on the written page. Transcripts may contain errors, and corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print.
NARRATION:
So I have a confession to make:
As you may know, Reckonings just ran a little Valentine’s Day donation campaign
Where I posted a photo of myself with a sign saying that if you donated to Reckonings by Valentine’s Day, I would send you A PIECE OF THAT SIGN
(Which you could then use to put chewed gum in or stick on your fridge or write a note on the back asking someone ELSE to donate or do plenty of other exciting things with)
-
So when Valentine’s Day came around, I mailed pieces of the sign to everyone who donated / with no mention of Reckonings / ASSUMING that folks would know what was going on
Which was a total assumption on my part
-
So: if you donated to Reckonings sometime between mid-January and Valentine’s Day
and you received an envelope containing a ripped piece of yellow legal pad paper / with a couple words written on it in colorful sharpie / and a return address that just said heart exclamation point / and you have no idea where it came from / that was me :)
-
And if you DID NOT find such a source of delight slash confusion in your mailbox but you DO wanna join in on the fun in the future, become a patron!
At: patreon.com/reckonings
that’s P A T R E O N dot com slash reckonings
-
I’m Stephanie Lepp, this is Reckonings, and here we go:
-
FRANK
south philly has a lot of small streets - betsy ross, etc., but there’s one or two big streets
4th street was that for me – it was the biggest street I had to cross
and every day i would just plan on: am i gonna have enough courage to get hit by a car today?
can i get hit by a car?
[LONG PAUSE]
-
i’d always jump out in the middle of the street
i’d always wait for a small car
-
I didn't want a big car to hit me, I wanted a small car to hit me - something that wasn’t gonna kill me
[PAUSE]
and it wasn’t that i didn’t want to die
it was just that i didn’t want to go home
i just rather go to the hospital for the day, and sit in a hospital bed
than to go home and put up with my stepfather
-
NARRATION:
That’s Frank. You can tell his voice by his Philly accent. Jesse’s also from Pennsylvania, but grew up Harrisburg, and has a lower voice:
-
JESSE
when i was in 7th grade
i went to school on a monday
my mother had pinched my cheeks so tightly together that i had internal bruising in my mouth
[PAUSE]
-
and so when i told the guidance counselor
he called my mother into his office after school hours and told her what i said
[PAUSE]
-
and she made me look like a liar and said that i fabricate stories all the time
and that in actuality i was the one who was abusing my brother
and that my brother and i were fighting and she never touches me
and that i made it up
[PAUSE]
-
and the guidance counselor believed my mother
took her word over mine
and I remember thinking I would suffer as a consequence
and i remember thinking that
no longer was it just my mother that was the problem
it was also society itself
that i had no one or nothing to turn to
-
NARRATION
Jesse spent many hours playing with the star wars action figures
He liked to think of himself as a JEDI / struggling against the dark side.
Which kinda became an ESCAPE for him
[PAUSE]
Escape for Frank was spending summers with his cousin out in rural Pennsylvania
His cousin was a couple years older and in a punk rock band and always into new and hip things.
Frank couldn't wait to get away from his OWN home / and go stay with HIM:
-
FRANK
the summer before
he had a half pipe to skate on
now he had like nothing
he wasn’t punk rock anymore
he had his head shaved and doc marten boots…
so i went up there and looked in his room
and inside his room was swastika flags and pictures of hitler…
-
i got to asking what that stuff meant
he said it meant he stood for the white race
and that i should stand for the white race too
[PAUSE]
----------------------------
so my cousin, him being older, had an older pack of friends, all these neo-nazis
and we went to a concert one night
but my cousin is scared that older neo-Nazis won’t recognize me as his cousin
so he says to me: frank, i want you to stand against a wall, cuz i don’t want one of my boys to beat you up cuz you still have hair on your head
big farm boy says i’ll protect you
picks me up and put me on his shoulder like a little baby
we go into the club
next thing you know all these fights are breaking out
----------------------------
and when the bouncers kicked us out, we stayed together
like we all stood outside together
[PAUSE]
————--
i felt protected
i felt like i belonged
[PAUSE]
———--
we go to party after concert
and everyone’s talking about fights that night
everyone’s talking about how they seen me on shoulders, so cool…
big guy comes up: bam! when you gonna shave?
i said: now
so every guy took turns
white power!
-
and that was it, i was in!
-
NARRATION:
Frank was 14 years old.
He soon got kicked out of high school for having a GUN / at school.
[PAUSE]
Then he got kicked out of the house, and started living mostly on the streets
[PAUSE]
Jesse had DROPPED out of school, and RAN away from home, and was also living mostly on the streets – doing and dealing drugs:
-
JESSE
one day i was in center city philadelphia
i was with a person named shakur
who was a fundamentalist muslim
we were good at hustling together
[PAUSE]
-
we had a person in a hotel room that wanted us to facilitate drug transactions for him
took a cab
came out of the projects and shined spotlights
we ran
we ran into
abandominium
abandominium is a house…
we hid behind two sheets of drywall….
shakur turns to me
and says: just say these words and everything will be okay
[PAUSE]
and he utters in Arabic what means: i bear witness that there is no God but Allah…
[PAUSE]
and i repeat that tho i don’t know what i’m saying
and we got away
-
NARRATION:
He got away that time, but Jesse was eventually arrested for drugs and sent to jail
One of his cell mates was a Muslim who started teaching Jesse about the holy war that was coming between Islam and the West
He became Jesse’s first imam
—————————————————————————--
when he felt sufficient knowledge
-
he told me to go to the shower
he said, imagine that you’re washing off every sin you’ve ever committed in your life
and you’re gonna be a baby
[PAUSE]
every sin you’ve ever committed in your life is gonna be washed away
[PAUSE]
so i went to the shower and i scrubbed and i felt like
this is finally an opportunity to kill off everything i’ve experienced and begin anew
-
he said i’m gonna give you a new name
[PAUSE]
he told me my new name was Yunus
[PAUSE]
——————————————————--
Islam gave me structure
i prayed 5 times a day in a community
gave up alcohol, gave up cigarettes
started to pray, started to study
part of the idea is to STUDY, aspire to get educated at a formal level
——————————————————--
it gave me a sense of significance and brotherhood
camaraderie
FRANK: the violence was a camaraderie
the camaraderie was great because i had a new family
-
FRANK
that was me and my boys - that’s how we stuck together
camaraderie
that was my going out and shooting hoops like other normal kids did
no - we went out and we
we went out and we beat up people
or fought other gangs
-
you have your goalie…
it was camaraderie
even if we got our butts kicked
at least we stood together
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JESSE
we went into a sea of Israeli / pro-Israeli protesters
who were protesting Ahmendinejad
and we stood there with a sign that said mushroom cloud over Israel
[PAUSE]
-
so this is the launch of Revolution Muslim
-
NARRATION
Revolution Muslim is an organization Jesse started with a couple friends.
Their goal was to recruit Americans to violent jihad.
Which they did by preaching on the streets and standing outside of mosques criticizing the “soft Islam” practiced inside
And through their website: RevolutionMuslim.com – which had tutorials for how to build explosives and theological justifications for suicide bombings and audio recordings of Osama bin Laden
—————————————————————————————--
we were the first group in the US post-9/11 to
openly and unabashedly
support Al Q on American streets
[PAUSE]
-
ultimately we were trying to take you from identifying with the religion
to to the point where you’re firmly committed to the ideology of the jihadists
and then from there
if you adopt the ideology of Al Q, and their position that it is permissible to attack civilians
we would take you to precipice between holding radical ideas and committing violent extremism
-
if innocent muslims are harmed, innocent westerners can also be harmed
—————————————————————————————--
FRANK
if they have BET, why can’t we have White Entertainment Television?
-
ya they got BET
they get whatever they want
we don’t get nothing
we’re just the left behind working white people
we’re building everything and they’re just living off of us
-
look at what’s going on in detroit…
do you want that in your neighborhood?
[PAUSE]
-
the white man is losing its place in america
[PAUSE]
and our society is going downhill
[PAUSE]
-
that’s how i recruit
-------------------------
i was a community activist
i was!
just for the white community - that’s all
—————————————————————————————--
JESSE
when i would hear an Osama lecture i felt like he was talking directly to ME
the way he would speak was very mild, soft…but his words were very powerful
[PAUSE]
he declared war on the US
and then carry out an attack of 9/11
which made him seem as if he had done something almost divine
and he was still living and breathing
he became almost like a father to me
[PAUSE]
—————————————————————————————--
FRANK: i believed i was happy
JESSE: i don’t know if happy is the proper word
FRANK
i definitely believed i was at the time
but then i was attempting suicide all the time
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NARRATION
Frank became a top neo-Nazi leader and recruiter
He had a bunch of warrants out for his arrest, so he was living on the run from the cops, constantly moving from state to state.
And wherever he went, the movement grew.
He even had his own public access television show, called The Reich
which he used to recruit young people to white supremacy
-
Jesse too became one of the most prolific jihadi recruiters / in the US
He grew Revolution Muslim to the point where it was directly connected to 1/3 of all domestic terrorist convictions – many of them people who Jesse groomed himself
-
JESSE
in 2010
the writers of south park stated
on a youtube interview
that they were going to portray mohammed
in an upcoming episode that would commemorate their 200th show
[PAUSE]
———————————————--
and so preemptively
a member of our site
posted a picture of theo van gogh
someone who was killed
in a street in amsterdam
for making a film that was deemed anti-muslim
and he said that the writers of south park will likely end up like theo
[PAUSE]
and he posted
addresses that might be associated with them
[PAUSE]
———————————————--
so i woke up one morning and i saw the threat
and i saw that traffic on the website was skyrocketing
it was immediately being picked up by press outlets all over the world
in fact for two hours, RM was second most trafficked website in the world
[PAUSE]
WOW
———————————————--
immediately the phone started to ring
email started to flow through
we constantly got requests for press interviews
but we’re talking about hundreds of requests
all day long
--
i realize this is probably breaking the law
[PAUSE]
-
i knew my time was up
if i stayed in the us, i’d be arrested
thereafter
and i took my family to morocco
-
FRANK
so I’m 17 years old
it’s christmas
i’m nowhere near my family
i’m stuck in springfield, IL
and there was this one kid
who i just didn’t like
he was kind of different political views than i was
and i didn’t like him hanging with my recruits cuz i thought he’d steal them
-
so we call him up and tell him there’s a christmas party
he’s more than welcome to
neutral ground…
when he came over there’s no party
--
just me and buddies waiting for him with guns
we put our guns in his face and told him to get into the apartment
and that he was
we wanted to question him about a few things
-
and right away we just started beating on him
kicking him, punching him, hitting him with the guns….
-
we would take turns
i would, buddy would…
3 guys, take turns
and um
and we tortured him for hours
and videotaped the whole thing
———————————--
he was bleeding so much, we told him we were gonna lose our security deposit and we were gonna kill him
so he sat there all night and coughed his own blood into his hands
———————————--
we let him go christmas morning
christmas time - go home
we couldn’t get no one to pay ransom for him
-
NARRATION
After running from the cops for years, that kidnapping finally got Frank arrested and sent to jail.
After running from the cops for years, that attack finally got Frank arrested and sent to jail.
[PAUSE]
-
Jesse was ALSO finally arrested in Morocco, and extradited back to the US
Where he was sentenced to 11 and a half years in federal prison.
He started out in solitary confinement, which means 23 hours a day in a cell by himself.
BUT a prison guard / took an interest in him, and let him go to the jail library for her entire 4-hour shift:
———————————————————--
one night she took me to the law library and
i was looking for a good book and
and the first book that i picked up is on the enlightenment philosophers
and the first thing i opened up to
interestingly enough
was john locke’s essay on tolerance and understanding
[PAUSE]
And it enthralled me
———————————————————--
and what i found was
that people need to be tolerant of people who think differently from them
particularly in regard to religion
and that tolerance is the way to resolve conflict
-
arab authoritarianism suppresses individual freedoms and rights
but the islamic state would REALLY suppress freedom and rights!
and people would consider that slavery!
-
Wow, what the fuck do i believe in?!
[PAUSE]
-
NARRATION
While HE was in jail, Frank was allowed to play football
He’d been playing with all the neo-Nazis, but they weren’t very good
And he’d started to get to know a black inmate named “G”
-
so
one day i seen G walking with all the older black dudes…
they were good…
i kinda missed that competition
so i asked G if i could play
[PAUSE]
-
can neo-nazi play with us? cuz i had a big swastika on my neck
[PAUSE]
-
and they were like hell no!
[PAUSE]
-
finally older guy is like, sure, he can do kickoff returns
like no one is gonna block me, and i’ll just get my head kicked off
-
first time i got the ball
the guys kick the ball to me…
…they wanted me to not play
even guys on my team
as I’m running that ball
as i’m running that ball
rotate, cradle…
-
so they were just like damn, white boy can play
-
after that they asked me if i’d play more
cuz they seen i was good
--------------
SO I’m PLAYING on this team that’s part of our cell block
and G is on the team and so is jello
and tony is our quarterback
[PAUSE]
-
we always played this one other team
and they were all black too
so basically it was all black against all black, except for i came along
sometimes
-
so one day we’re playing this team that we really don’t get along with
and they have this really good quarterback
big tall lanky kid from chicago - black kid
and they’re always doing this play…
i read that play and knew it…
interception and a touchdown
[PAUSE]
-
…and as i get to the end zone
he forearmed me in the back of my head, as hard as he could
and he goes - white boy all i had to do…fucking white boy
i was seeing stars…
[PAUSE]
---------------------
and for the first time ever
black guys on my team are pushing for cheap shot
before they never did nothing about it
i got cheap shotted every play
you better believe it i’m this neo-nazi wide receiver guy
i’m getting cheap shotted all the time
[PAUSE]
they’re sticking up for me
like legitimately defending me - like the person
———————--
couple plays later i got back in the game…
and i just remember just
i had a different feeling
different times now - gave me a high five
-
they finally accepted me as a teammate in that game
—————————————————————————--
JESSE
she didn’t treat me like a demon
[PAUSE]
-
NARRATION
Jesse was having constant debriefing meetings with two federal agents.
One of them took a special interest in his case:
-
most of the jail guards in the prison - i was a terrorist, i was a scumbag
and even other law enforcement agencies that came to meet with me
this was an individual who treated me like a HUMAN!
————————————--
JESSE
and in the middle of that
an individual who is being charged with
shooting at the pentagon and trying to burn koranic verses into arlington cemetery
approaches my cell
and he knows who i am
and he tells me his plot was not the only one
[PAUSE]
there were other individuals in the US in a cell that he had formulated that the US didn’t know about
and he told me about this plot
—--
the koran says that muslims aren’t supposed to spy on each other
spying is like disbelief
—--
and i’m faced with this choice: do i report it or do i not?
-
do i spy on a muslim
and tell on him
and save people’s lives maybe?
or do i just go about my business?
———————————————————————————————————————--
when i think about the young people that was my audience
and how many of them
are in jail or dead
having traveled abroad to…
[PAUSE]
-
I see how when you skip a stone through a river resonate out
not just individuals but vibrate outwards
…that continues
[PAUSE]
-
samir kahn stands out as an individual who i
collaborated with and
helped radicalize who was younger than myself
who was ultimately killed in a drone strike in yemen
-
i feel like i had a very serious impact on his outcome
but i could mention 20 diff cases that are all very similar with the effect i had
[PAUSE]
----
revolution muslim became a lot bigger than we ever imagined it would
[PAUSE]
the ISIS entities pay more for propaganda than fighting
in the islamic tradition, it is said that ink of scholar worth thousand times more than blood of martyr
[PAUSE]
the legacy of the idea — the idea that ideas are eternal continues to haunt me the most
------------------------------------
i really really liked
the female FBI agent
i trusted her
[PAUSE]
and because i trusted her and she didn’t demonize me
i felt like i had an opportunity to make amends for some of the harm that i caused!
[PAUSE]
and i reported it
------------------------------------
NARRATION:
“It” – the plot that Jesse had been tipped off to – turned out to be real.
So by reporting it, he helped PREVENT a terrorist attack on US soil.
After that, the woman FBI agent took Jesse on / as an informant.
-
FRANK
the day of my release
there was planned a party for my release by all the nazis back in springfield
so here are all these guys..and i’m back in seniority role
-
i still was a leader in prison, just happened to play sports with black dudes
but i was gonna go back to being who i was
Aryan warrior
[PAUSE]
-----------------------------------------------------
i started to hear things in the movement
[PAUSE]
there was times when i’d be in meetings and guys would say stupid black jokes…
and i’d think that’s idiotic
i don’t know if i’m friends with you anymore
so i said i’m just gonna stop talking about that
-
but i still thought that
the jews are different
the jews are different
[PAUSE]
-
the jewish thing was so much easier
because throughout my whole story, i never met any jewish people
[PAUSE]
——————————————--
but / i can’t find work
[PAUSE]
who’s gonna hire an ex-con with stastika?
I’m 19 years old
-
so
a buddy of mine offers me job at antique show
and i said sure
$100/day
i said i’ll take it
he says it’s for 3 days…
as soon as i say i’ll take the job
he says the guy is jewish
[PAUSE]
you still want job?
[PAUSE]
I just remember
i was thinking
i um
i don’t have a job, i need money
i said i don’t have to talk to him right?
he says, oh ya
he says i told keith all about you
you’re a neo nazi
just getting out of prison
he goes
keith says, he don’t give a rat’s ass what you believe, just don’t break his furniture…
[PAUSE]
and i was like okay, fine
[PAUSE]
-
i walked
i show up for my first day
for 3 days i carry the furniture in and out
i get paid tons of money in tips
and he owes me $300 at the end of the weekend
and i made $600 in tips
so at the end of the weekend, i thought he was gonna
jew me
he wasn’t gonna give me my money
[PAUSE]
he was gonna find a way…
so i’m planning all these arguments…
-
and he goes
$300 okay
-
pulls out a wad of money from the show
and he goes…extra $100
[PAUSE]
and i remember thinking, son of a bitch
i have all these land mines…stepped on one yet
whatever, thank you, made $1000!
[PAUSE]
-
he gave me a ride home that night
and he gave me the ride home
and as he’s dropping me off
he says, what do you do for a living?
i don’t do nothing
he says why don’t you come work for me?
[PAUSE]
-
and i’m looking down at my laces which mean i’m a neo-nazi
[PAUSE]
-
and i keep looking at laces as he’s talking to me this jewish man
[PAUSE]
-
and i’m trying to hide boots underneath seat
-
and i’m just looking at him like - thank God this human being is in my life
[PAUSE]
-
i was full of fear
i was full of absolute fear, of everything
and so i got with a group of people
who were also fearful people
fearful of losing their homeland
loose their women to the black
you name it
[PAUSE]
-
in my fear i felt mainly weak
and what they did
is they turned my fear into an anger
so my weakness into a strong point
[PAUSE]
-
i was embarrassed
i was completely embarrassed of my beliefs
i was wrong
i had been completely wrong for the last 7 years of my life
[PAUSE]
-
this is all bullshit
i was willing to die and kill for BULLSHIT
[PAUSE]
-
i had so much seniority in this group
that seniority was important to me because i had nothing in this world
[PAUSE]
i cut everything that wasn’t part of the movement out of my life
so that’s all i have
--------------------------------------
car ride is coming to an end
and he drops me off
and he says, i’ll see you monday right?
-
and
i could not wait to get those boots off
[PAUSE]
-
my whole image of me is gone
and i have to build something new
[PAUSE]
---------------------
NARRATION:
The Jewish antique dealer who gave Frank a job.
The jail guard who BROKE the solitary confinement rules to let Jesse read in the library
And the FBI agent who took Jesse on as an informant.
-
These were the kinds of people Frank and Jesse had previously seen as the enemy.
They were PRECISELY the people Frank and Jesse LEAST deserved compassion from,
but who gave it to them
-
FRANK
april 19, 1995
-
i go to a local corner delhi in south philly right by my mom’s house
and i go to the corner delhi
and i order a hoagie
and i get a hoagie
-
and the guy behind says OMG…bombing in Oklahoma
[PAUSE]
federal building
I thought it was islamic
something along them lines
-
in the deli it was on TV
the news team was saying bombing here, medical team…and they were showing still shots of pictures of the day
in OK city
there’s this picture of this fireman…
[PAUSE]
----------------------------------
i felt absolutely evil
i felt like i had
I had taken part in preaching this type of evil
That this should happen
That we should do these type of things
That we should blow up federal buildings
someone won’t ever see their little girl again
because of my beliefs
because of the beliefs that i preached
[PAUSE]
------------------------------------------
i wanted to just be left alone
i wanted to hide in south philly and forget about everything that happened over the last 6 years
[PAUSE]
now i’m like
even thought it’s 100% wrong
I can justify it
I can explain to people why someone would feel that way
———————————————————————————--
So
[SIGH]
um
oklahoma city
i believe it was a thursday that it happened
by monday
it was shaking me
so i went to the FBI…
———————————————————————————--
…oklahoma city bombing
[PAUSE]
-
they sat me
they sat me down
FBI guy comes in…
——————--
What’s your name?
Who do you know?
I just needed to talk to someone about blowing up
[LONG SILENCE]
-
was this the first time?
first time, EVERYTHING
[PAUSE]
-
how did you feel?
-
felt good
[PAUSE]
—————————————————--
NARRATION:
The Oklahoma City bombing remains the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in US history,
killing almost 200 people, and injuring almost 700 more.
Its perpetrator, Timothy McVeigh, frequently quoted white supremacist propaganda.
Frank initially thought the bombing was perpetrated by Islamic extrEmists
But white supremacists kill more than twice as many Americans as jihadists
[PAUSE]
-
END MUSIC
Frank’s visit to the FBI ended up landing him a gig with his former arch-nemesis: the Anti-Defamation League
He started by speaking to the ADL Director’s daughter’s fourth grade class
And then started speaking about racial tolerance on behalf of the ADL / to audiences all over the country
Jesse’s work as an FBI informant got him released after serving less than a third of his sentence
It also landed him a research position at George Washington University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JESSE
i think it might have been sep 1
when i went public as america’s first former jihadist
[PAUSE]
-
in the morning
Rukmini Calamachi ran a front page NYT piece
-
the media response was overwhelming
i was soon doing
on average
i would say
3-4 interviews a day
-
i was so excited
[PAUSE]
i felt like i had finally found a position in life where i could contribute
and also was honored to be given a chance by a major university in the US
[PAUSE]
-
-
i did more interviews and i struggled to manage my time
i stopped sleeping
many hours at night
i stopped eating breakfast
i stopped exercising
i didn’t have balance at all
i was traveling a lot
i was trying to respond and do the best i could for every media interview
and then i would see the final pieces and they would be so simplistic
they reduced me to a very basic narrative - there was no complexity at all
i was just a former extremist
[PAUSE]
-
i was at the same time
i was in a relationship with a alcoholic who i started to drink with
it was my first drink in 16 years
a week later, first cigarette…
first time marijuana
-
and then the holiday season
came
[PAUSE]
-
i was supposed to go home and see my family
[PAUSE]
-
so
i’m sitting in my car and ready to to go Penn to see my family for thanksgiving
and i feel like
i’m just this narrative, this object
that is good for media but nothing else
i’m just a story
[PAUSE]
-
i never made it home to pennsylvania
———————————————————————————--
NARRATION
Instead, Jesse made it back to jail, arrested on possession of crack cocaine.
-
the same things that caused me to adopt radical islam were still there!
They had never been dealt with
i thought they were put to sleep cuz i had left alone an ideology, but i never did the work to heal!
————————————————————————
deradicalization is a process, not an event
it goes back and forth
it goes up and down
it goes in and out
it goes all over the place
one day you’re like firmly committed that it’s okay to change like this
the next day you’re a hypocrite in your own brain
[PAUSE]
-
there is no end to the journey
it’s a continuous process of regeneration and learning
you have to be open to change
-------------------------------------
FRANK
let’s say he went to a spencer rally
got caught on the news, screaming N-word
someone puts his address on Twitter…
that guy is…now this is coming back to haunt me
so now he has some repercussions
[PAUSE]
there’s gotta be repercussions
he has something where family members don’t want him around because just talk about racist bullshit…
that’s what my family did cuz i was a racist thug
[PAUSE]
-
everyone in his life has called him an idiot…
[PAUSE]
-
and then I come along
i don’t fight ideology at all
[PAUSE]
i talk to him about HIM and what’s going on with him
[PAUSE]
——————————————--
hey, back when you were joining this group
is this what you imagined your life was gonna be like?
[PAUSE]
your family doesnt want you around
is this REALLY what you thought…?
[PAUSE]
---
JESSE
the former extremist
they can relate
they can understand what it’s like to be in another’s shoes
which is definition of empathy
and they understand the nuances of the worldview that’s espoused
[PAUSE]
-
Google Ideas was the first entity to put former extremists together
and to sort of tease out commonalities between extremists…
one of the things they found from a former extremist to an extremist
is a very effective tool…
and so they are going to expand what they call AVE network
[PAUSE]
———————————————————--
the AVE network is a network of ….
that can then formulate as an alternative community that can ultimately challenge those networks and those communities that are extremist
[PAUSE]
-
until we develop networks that rival in size and scope, we’re never going to deal with the problem
-
FRANK
stop throwing bottles at the neo-nazis
seriously
not working
battling hate with hate is never gonna win
-
it takes a harder and stronger person to try to have conversation
when people had convos that were real, that’s when i couldn’t hate them anymore
——————————————--
probably the most majestic creature on the whole planet is the elephant
-
NARRATION:
Frank has a story he likes to tell about elephants.
The way he tells it:
In the 1950’s in sub-Saharan Africa, elephants were being hunted to extinction for their tusks.
So conservationists rounded up 200 baby elephants, and created an elephant reserve.
-
they thought we’ll get em all together
they won’t even know they’re from different herds
they’ll be kumbaya fucking elephants
it’ll be great!
and they were
it worked
kumbaya
they got along great
[PAUSE]
except they didn’t get along with nothing else
they killed the hippos….giraffes..
so they started killing the elephants again
cuz they didn’t know what to do with them
[PAUSE]
-
so
as they were shooting some of the meaner/nastier bulls
they like teenager year elephants
whatever teenage year in elephants is, that’s what they were
-
old african man goes to them and says:
please stop shooting the elephants
[PAUSE]
you’re confusing them
you need to stop killing them
[PAUSE]
——————————————--
but we have to, they’re getting too aggressive
he goes, oh no
you don’t need to shoot em, just need to get bulls…let them slap the shit out of these ones and teach em how to act like an elephant
no one’s ever taught them to act like an elephant
[PAUSE]
and it worked!
within months they got in line…
i’m not talking about violence
we have to be the old elephants
and sometimes you gotta recognize that you’re the young elephant and get a mentor
we need to step in now, and start saying these things to each other
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NARRATION:
My parents are from Mexico and have pretty thick Mexican accents
-
A couple weeks ago, my dad was playing doubles tennis
And a player on the OPPOSITE team made a comment about ICE (Immigrations and Customs Enforcement) coming after him
The guy’s tennis partner laughed, and my dad and HIS partner just ignored it and kept on playing
------
After the game, my dad mentioned the comment to his team captain, who then wanted to tell the captain of this OTHER guy’s team
So my dad called me / to ask what he should do
And so I asked him: what do you want?
And he said: I want this guy to know that he did something wrong
------
There’s a whole tension around coddling bigots – ESPECIALLY those who commit violence
There’s a million reasons why THIS PERSON doesn't deserve our forgivenesss/compassion
And we might be absolutely right – AND we might also ask ourselves: what do we want?
------
If what we want is to let our adversaries know that they’re doing something wrong, then we’re already SUCCEEDING
If we ALSO want to do some jiujitsu on bigotry / and see more compassion in the world, wellllll then WE might have to be more compassionate ourselves
-------
My dad and I went back and forth, and I suggested saying to the guy – hey, based on your comment, sounds like you might not know many people who immigrated to the US legally. I came legally from Mexico, how about we get together and I tell you my story?
Of course this is NOT my dad’s job, AND unless we all sign up to be old elephants AND baby elephants
how will we all become majestic elephants?
-
JESSE
my father, his family is traced all the way back to the massacdusettes bay colony
sons and daughters of the american revolution
—————————————————--
FRANK
my dad was italian
he has an italian last name
-
my mom always told us we were irish
even tho we didn’t have irish last name
we have meeink…
[PAUSE]
years and years later we find out that meeink is jewish
[PAUSE]
-
i could have been a left-wing guerrilla in columbia
could have been anything!
[PAUSE]
whatever would have grabbed me at that time, i woulda been ready for
—————————————————--
JESSE
it’s not so much about the radicalization of islam, but the islamization of radicalism
[PAUSE]
it’s not so much about the ideology itself
it’s about the way that ideology presents itself as an alternative worldview
and a countercultural movement that offers people something different than
the world they have come to experience
[PAUSE]
—————————————————--
-
at one point i thought justification for what i’d done due to what was done to me
now i realize that’s the easy way out
that’s an excuse
everyone has culpability in who they become, no matter what was done to them
[PAUSE]
-
the one way i do see myself as a victim is in the way our society is
uncompassionate
[PAUSE]
-
majority of friends i grew up in working class america
have died from heroine overdoses…
i could have easily been one of them
[PAUSE]
-
radical islam was my outlet
it was my way to cope
it was my way to deal with not having privilege
it was my way to cope with same things as right wing
——————————————--
the grievances of white nationalists are the same as islamists!, so until we address grievances, rhetoric will fall flat
[PAUSE]
a lot of people aren’t willing to be barristers at Starbucks…
——————————————--
this might be psychotically optimistic, but what about bringing extremists together in popular movement for human development?
that’s what AVE is trying to do
and I think it’s necessary
[PAUSE]
——————————————--
we need a robust movement that can pose an alternative for those that are in extremist movements
-
NARRATION
Jesse Morton is the first former jihadi extremist in the US / to go public.
Right now he does work in counter-extrEmism as a labor of love,
And work in construction to pay the bills.
Someday, he’d love to be able to do counter-extrEmism work full-time.
---
Frank Meeink is the basis for Ed Norton’s character in the 1998 film American History X
He spends most of his time teaching racial tolerance to kids through hockey.
-----
Frank and Jesse are both members of the Institute for Strategic Dialogue’s Against Violent Extremism Network – a network of former extremists and survivors of extremism who work to challenge extremism in all its forms
Combined, Frank and Jesse have done hundreds of one-on-one interventions on people who commit extremist violence without the involvement of law enforcement
-----
And they are SO MUCH MORE than former extremists
They are humble and creative individuals with a VERY DARK PAST that they are STILL working through with the help of rehab and therapy and meditation and friends
They / are husbands
And they’re dads who’ve made the monumental LEAP of giving their kids more love than they got.
-------------------
If you want more storytelling than Reckonings is currently putting out
I’m gonna turn you onto a podcast I have been loving, called: This Is Actually Happening
It features first person accounts of dramatically life-changing events
So you can tell why I like it :)
But it also does that in this really beautiful way – by letting guests do ALL the talking, with no narration
Check it out at permatemp.org/happening and on instagram at @actuallyhappening
-----------------------------------
Those of you who make an ongoing contribution of $8 or more now get your 15 seconds of fame – thank you:
Kyle Studstill
Tibet Sprague
Trevor Stutz
Dan Weissman
Scott Saunders
Jacqueline Gerson
and Cristoffer
You too can enjoy the glory of your name in the credits at patreon.com/reckonings
And an extra special set of thanks go to folks who contributed to THIS EPISODE: Helena de Groot, Vika Aronson, Moustafa Ayad, Oren Segal and Todd Gutnick, Maureen Costello, Dan Keyserling, The Germanacos Foundation,
AND TO the Gen Next Foundation — whose partnership with ISD and Google Jigsaw created the Against Violent Extremism (AVE) network.
---
I’m Stephanie Lepp, and thanks last but not least to YOU for listening to Reckonings
Note: Reckonings is produced to be heard, not read. The audio includes emotion and emphasis unavailable on the written page. Transcripts may contain errors, and corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print.
NARRATION:
So I have a confession to make:
As you may know, Reckonings just ran a little Valentine’s Day donation campaign
Where I posted a photo of myself with a sign saying that if you donated to Reckonings by Valentine’s Day, I would send you A PIECE OF THAT SIGN
(Which you could then use to put chewed gum in or stick on your fridge or write a note on the back asking someone ELSE to donate or do plenty of other exciting things with)
-
So when Valentine’s Day came around, I mailed pieces of the sign to everyone who donated / with no mention of Reckonings / ASSUMING that folks would know what was going on
Which was a total assumption on my part
-
So: if you donated to Reckonings sometime between mid-January and Valentine’s Day
and you received an envelope containing a ripped piece of yellow legal pad paper / with a couple words written on it in colorful sharpie / and a return address that just said heart exclamation point / and you have no idea where it came from / that was me :)
-
And if you DID NOT find such a source of delight slash confusion in your mailbox but you DO wanna join in on the fun in the future, become a patron!
At: patreon.com/reckonings
that’s P A T R E O N dot com slash reckonings
-
I’m Stephanie Lepp, this is Reckonings, and here we go:
-
FRANK
south philly has a lot of small streets - betsy ross, etc., but there’s one or two big streets
4th street was that for me – it was the biggest street I had to cross
and every day i would just plan on: am i gonna have enough courage to get hit by a car today?
can i get hit by a car?
[LONG PAUSE]
-
i’d always jump out in the middle of the street
i’d always wait for a small car
-
I didn't want a big car to hit me, I wanted a small car to hit me - something that wasn’t gonna kill me
[PAUSE]
and it wasn’t that i didn’t want to die
it was just that i didn’t want to go home
i just rather go to the hospital for the day, and sit in a hospital bed
than to go home and put up with my stepfather
-
NARRATION:
That’s Frank. You can tell his voice by his Philly accent. Jesse’s also from Pennsylvania, but grew up Harrisburg, and has a lower voice:
-
JESSE
when i was in 7th grade
i went to school on a monday
my mother had pinched my cheeks so tightly together that i had internal bruising in my mouth
[PAUSE]
-
and so when i told the guidance counselor
he called my mother into his office after school hours and told her what i said
[PAUSE]
-
and she made me look like a liar and said that i fabricate stories all the time
and that in actuality i was the one who was abusing my brother
and that my brother and i were fighting and she never touches me
and that i made it up
[PAUSE]
-
and the guidance counselor believed my mother
took her word over mine
and I remember thinking I would suffer as a consequence
and i remember thinking that
no longer was it just my mother that was the problem
it was also society itself
that i had no one or nothing to turn to
-
NARRATION
Jesse spent many hours playing with the star wars action figures
He liked to think of himself as a JEDI / struggling against the dark side.
Which kinda became an ESCAPE for him
[PAUSE]
Escape for Frank was spending summers with his cousin out in rural Pennsylvania
His cousin was a couple years older and in a punk rock band and always into new and hip things.
Frank couldn't wait to get away from his OWN home / and go stay with HIM:
-
FRANK
the summer before
he had a half pipe to skate on
now he had like nothing
he wasn’t punk rock anymore
he had his head shaved and doc marten boots…
so i went up there and looked in his room
and inside his room was swastika flags and pictures of hitler…
-
i got to asking what that stuff meant
he said it meant he stood for the white race
and that i should stand for the white race too
[PAUSE]
----------------------------
so my cousin, him being older, had an older pack of friends, all these neo-nazis
and we went to a concert one night
but my cousin is scared that older neo-Nazis won’t recognize me as his cousin
so he says to me: frank, i want you to stand against a wall, cuz i don’t want one of my boys to beat you up cuz you still have hair on your head
big farm boy says i’ll protect you
picks me up and put me on his shoulder like a little baby
we go into the club
next thing you know all these fights are breaking out
----------------------------
and when the bouncers kicked us out, we stayed together
like we all stood outside together
[PAUSE]
————--
i felt protected
i felt like i belonged
[PAUSE]
———--
we go to party after concert
and everyone’s talking about fights that night
everyone’s talking about how they seen me on shoulders, so cool…
big guy comes up: bam! when you gonna shave?
i said: now
so every guy took turns
white power!
-
and that was it, i was in!
-
NARRATION:
Frank was 14 years old.
He soon got kicked out of high school for having a GUN / at school.
[PAUSE]
Then he got kicked out of the house, and started living mostly on the streets
[PAUSE]
Jesse had DROPPED out of school, and RAN away from home, and was also living mostly on the streets – doing and dealing drugs:
-
JESSE
one day i was in center city philadelphia
i was with a person named shakur
who was a fundamentalist muslim
we were good at hustling together
[PAUSE]
-
we had a person in a hotel room that wanted us to facilitate drug transactions for him
took a cab
came out of the projects and shined spotlights
we ran
we ran into
abandominium
abandominium is a house…
we hid behind two sheets of drywall….
shakur turns to me
and says: just say these words and everything will be okay
[PAUSE]
and he utters in Arabic what means: i bear witness that there is no God but Allah…
[PAUSE]
and i repeat that tho i don’t know what i’m saying
and we got away
-
NARRATION:
He got away that time, but Jesse was eventually arrested for drugs and sent to jail
One of his cell mates was a Muslim who started teaching Jesse about the holy war that was coming between Islam and the West
He became Jesse’s first imam
—————————————————————————--
when he felt sufficient knowledge
-
he told me to go to the shower
he said, imagine that you’re washing off every sin you’ve ever committed in your life
and you’re gonna be a baby
[PAUSE]
every sin you’ve ever committed in your life is gonna be washed away
[PAUSE]
so i went to the shower and i scrubbed and i felt like
this is finally an opportunity to kill off everything i’ve experienced and begin anew
-
he said i’m gonna give you a new name
[PAUSE]
he told me my new name was Yunus
[PAUSE]
——————————————————--
Islam gave me structure
i prayed 5 times a day in a community
gave up alcohol, gave up cigarettes
started to pray, started to study
part of the idea is to STUDY, aspire to get educated at a formal level
——————————————————--
it gave me a sense of significance and brotherhood
camaraderie
FRANK: the violence was a camaraderie
the camaraderie was great because i had a new family
-
FRANK
that was me and my boys - that’s how we stuck together
camaraderie
that was my going out and shooting hoops like other normal kids did
no - we went out and we
we went out and we beat up people
or fought other gangs
-
you have your goalie…
it was camaraderie
even if we got our butts kicked
at least we stood together
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JESSE
we went into a sea of Israeli / pro-Israeli protesters
who were protesting Ahmendinejad
and we stood there with a sign that said mushroom cloud over Israel
[PAUSE]
-
so this is the launch of Revolution Muslim
-
NARRATION
Revolution Muslim is an organization Jesse started with a couple friends.
Their goal was to recruit Americans to violent jihad.
Which they did by preaching on the streets and standing outside of mosques criticizing the “soft Islam” practiced inside
And through their website: RevolutionMuslim.com – which had tutorials for how to build explosives and theological justifications for suicide bombings and audio recordings of Osama bin Laden
—————————————————————————————--
we were the first group in the US post-9/11 to
openly and unabashedly
support Al Q on American streets
[PAUSE]
-
ultimately we were trying to take you from identifying with the religion
to to the point where you’re firmly committed to the ideology of the jihadists
and then from there
if you adopt the ideology of Al Q, and their position that it is permissible to attack civilians
we would take you to precipice between holding radical ideas and committing violent extremism
-
if innocent muslims are harmed, innocent westerners can also be harmed
—————————————————————————————--
FRANK
if they have BET, why can’t we have White Entertainment Television?
-
ya they got BET
they get whatever they want
we don’t get nothing
we’re just the left behind working white people
we’re building everything and they’re just living off of us
-
look at what’s going on in detroit…
do you want that in your neighborhood?
[PAUSE]
-
the white man is losing its place in america
[PAUSE]
and our society is going downhill
[PAUSE]
-
that’s how i recruit
-------------------------
i was a community activist
i was!
just for the white community - that’s all
—————————————————————————————--
JESSE
when i would hear an Osama lecture i felt like he was talking directly to ME
the way he would speak was very mild, soft…but his words were very powerful
[PAUSE]
he declared war on the US
and then carry out an attack of 9/11
which made him seem as if he had done something almost divine
and he was still living and breathing
he became almost like a father to me
[PAUSE]
—————————————————————————————--
FRANK: i believed i was happy
JESSE: i don’t know if happy is the proper word
FRANK
i definitely believed i was at the time
but then i was attempting suicide all the time
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NARRATION
Frank became a top neo-Nazi leader and recruiter
He had a bunch of warrants out for his arrest, so he was living on the run from the cops, constantly moving from state to state.
And wherever he went, the movement grew.
He even had his own public access television show, called The Reich
which he used to recruit young people to white supremacy
-
Jesse too became one of the most prolific jihadi recruiters / in the US
He grew Revolution Muslim to the point where it was directly connected to 1/3 of all domestic terrorist convictions – many of them people who Jesse groomed himself
-
JESSE
in 2010
the writers of south park stated
on a youtube interview
that they were going to portray mohammed
in an upcoming episode that would commemorate their 200th show
[PAUSE]
———————————————--
and so preemptively
a member of our site
posted a picture of theo van gogh
someone who was killed
in a street in amsterdam
for making a film that was deemed anti-muslim
and he said that the writers of south park will likely end up like theo
[PAUSE]
and he posted
addresses that might be associated with them
[PAUSE]
———————————————--
so i woke up one morning and i saw the threat
and i saw that traffic on the website was skyrocketing
it was immediately being picked up by press outlets all over the world
in fact for two hours, RM was second most trafficked website in the world
[PAUSE]
WOW
———————————————--
immediately the phone started to ring
email started to flow through
we constantly got requests for press interviews
but we’re talking about hundreds of requests
all day long
--
i realize this is probably breaking the law
[PAUSE]
-
i knew my time was up
if i stayed in the us, i’d be arrested
thereafter
and i took my family to morocco
-
FRANK
so I’m 17 years old
it’s christmas
i’m nowhere near my family
i’m stuck in springfield, IL
and there was this one kid
who i just didn’t like
he was kind of different political views than i was
and i didn’t like him hanging with my recruits cuz i thought he’d steal them
-
so we call him up and tell him there’s a christmas party
he’s more than welcome to
neutral ground…
when he came over there’s no party
--
just me and buddies waiting for him with guns
we put our guns in his face and told him to get into the apartment
and that he was
we wanted to question him about a few things
-
and right away we just started beating on him
kicking him, punching him, hitting him with the guns….
-
we would take turns
i would, buddy would…
3 guys, take turns
and um
and we tortured him for hours
and videotaped the whole thing
———————————--
he was bleeding so much, we told him we were gonna lose our security deposit and we were gonna kill him
so he sat there all night and coughed his own blood into his hands
———————————--
we let him go christmas morning
christmas time - go home
we couldn’t get no one to pay ransom for him
-
NARRATION
After running from the cops for years, that kidnapping finally got Frank arrested and sent to jail.
After running from the cops for years, that attack finally got Frank arrested and sent to jail.
[PAUSE]
-
Jesse was ALSO finally arrested in Morocco, and extradited back to the US
Where he was sentenced to 11 and a half years in federal prison.
He started out in solitary confinement, which means 23 hours a day in a cell by himself.
BUT a prison guard / took an interest in him, and let him go to the jail library for her entire 4-hour shift:
———————————————————--
one night she took me to the law library and
i was looking for a good book and
and the first book that i picked up is on the enlightenment philosophers
and the first thing i opened up to
interestingly enough
was john locke’s essay on tolerance and understanding
[PAUSE]
And it enthralled me
———————————————————--
and what i found was
that people need to be tolerant of people who think differently from them
particularly in regard to religion
and that tolerance is the way to resolve conflict
-
arab authoritarianism suppresses individual freedoms and rights
but the islamic state would REALLY suppress freedom and rights!
and people would consider that slavery!
-
Wow, what the fuck do i believe in?!
[PAUSE]
-
NARRATION
While HE was in jail, Frank was allowed to play football
He’d been playing with all the neo-Nazis, but they weren’t very good
And he’d started to get to know a black inmate named “G”
-
so
one day i seen G walking with all the older black dudes…
they were good…
i kinda missed that competition
so i asked G if i could play
[PAUSE]
-
can neo-nazi play with us? cuz i had a big swastika on my neck
[PAUSE]
-
and they were like hell no!
[PAUSE]
-
finally older guy is like, sure, he can do kickoff returns
like no one is gonna block me, and i’ll just get my head kicked off
-
first time i got the ball
the guys kick the ball to me…
…they wanted me to not play
even guys on my team
as I’m running that ball
as i’m running that ball
rotate, cradle…
-
so they were just like damn, white boy can play
-
after that they asked me if i’d play more
cuz they seen i was good
--------------
SO I’m PLAYING on this team that’s part of our cell block
and G is on the team and so is jello
and tony is our quarterback
[PAUSE]
-
we always played this one other team
and they were all black too
so basically it was all black against all black, except for i came along
sometimes
-
so one day we’re playing this team that we really don’t get along with
and they have this really good quarterback
big tall lanky kid from chicago - black kid
and they’re always doing this play…
i read that play and knew it…
interception and a touchdown
[PAUSE]
-
…and as i get to the end zone
he forearmed me in the back of my head, as hard as he could
and he goes - white boy all i had to do…fucking white boy
i was seeing stars…
[PAUSE]
---------------------
and for the first time ever
black guys on my team are pushing for cheap shot
before they never did nothing about it
i got cheap shotted every play
you better believe it i’m this neo-nazi wide receiver guy
i’m getting cheap shotted all the time
[PAUSE]
they’re sticking up for me
like legitimately defending me - like the person
———————--
couple plays later i got back in the game…
and i just remember just
i had a different feeling
different times now - gave me a high five
-
they finally accepted me as a teammate in that game
—————————————————————————--
JESSE
she didn’t treat me like a demon
[PAUSE]
-
NARRATION
Jesse was having constant debriefing meetings with two federal agents.
One of them took a special interest in his case:
-
most of the jail guards in the prison - i was a terrorist, i was a scumbag
and even other law enforcement agencies that came to meet with me
this was an individual who treated me like a HUMAN!
————————————--
JESSE
and in the middle of that
an individual who is being charged with
shooting at the pentagon and trying to burn koranic verses into arlington cemetery
approaches my cell
and he knows who i am
and he tells me his plot was not the only one
[PAUSE]
there were other individuals in the US in a cell that he had formulated that the US didn’t know about
and he told me about this plot
—--
the koran says that muslims aren’t supposed to spy on each other
spying is like disbelief
—--
and i’m faced with this choice: do i report it or do i not?
-
do i spy on a muslim
and tell on him
and save people’s lives maybe?
or do i just go about my business?
———————————————————————————————————————--
when i think about the young people that was my audience
and how many of them
are in jail or dead
having traveled abroad to…
[PAUSE]
-
I see how when you skip a stone through a river resonate out
not just individuals but vibrate outwards
…that continues
[PAUSE]
-
samir kahn stands out as an individual who i
collaborated with and
helped radicalize who was younger than myself
who was ultimately killed in a drone strike in yemen
-
i feel like i had a very serious impact on his outcome
but i could mention 20 diff cases that are all very similar with the effect i had
[PAUSE]
----
revolution muslim became a lot bigger than we ever imagined it would
[PAUSE]
the ISIS entities pay more for propaganda than fighting
in the islamic tradition, it is said that ink of scholar worth thousand times more than blood of martyr
[PAUSE]
the legacy of the idea — the idea that ideas are eternal continues to haunt me the most
------------------------------------
i really really liked
the female FBI agent
i trusted her
[PAUSE]
and because i trusted her and she didn’t demonize me
i felt like i had an opportunity to make amends for some of the harm that i caused!
[PAUSE]
and i reported it
------------------------------------
NARRATION:
“It” – the plot that Jesse had been tipped off to – turned out to be real.
So by reporting it, he helped PREVENT a terrorist attack on US soil.
After that, the woman FBI agent took Jesse on / as an informant.
-
FRANK
the day of my release
there was planned a party for my release by all the nazis back in springfield
so here are all these guys..and i’m back in seniority role
-
i still was a leader in prison, just happened to play sports with black dudes
but i was gonna go back to being who i was
Aryan warrior
[PAUSE]
-----------------------------------------------------
i started to hear things in the movement
[PAUSE]
there was times when i’d be in meetings and guys would say stupid black jokes…
and i’d think that’s idiotic
i don’t know if i’m friends with you anymore
so i said i’m just gonna stop talking about that
-
but i still thought that
the jews are different
the jews are different
[PAUSE]
-
the jewish thing was so much easier
because throughout my whole story, i never met any jewish people
[PAUSE]
——————————————--
but / i can’t find work
[PAUSE]
who’s gonna hire an ex-con with stastika?
I’m 19 years old
-
so
a buddy of mine offers me job at antique show
and i said sure
$100/day
i said i’ll take it
he says it’s for 3 days…
as soon as i say i’ll take the job
he says the guy is jewish
[PAUSE]
you still want job?
[PAUSE]
I just remember
i was thinking
i um
i don’t have a job, i need money
i said i don’t have to talk to him right?
he says, oh ya
he says i told keith all about you
you’re a neo nazi
just getting out of prison
he goes
keith says, he don’t give a rat’s ass what you believe, just don’t break his furniture…
[PAUSE]
and i was like okay, fine
[PAUSE]
-
i walked
i show up for my first day
for 3 days i carry the furniture in and out
i get paid tons of money in tips
and he owes me $300 at the end of the weekend
and i made $600 in tips
so at the end of the weekend, i thought he was gonna
jew me
he wasn’t gonna give me my money
[PAUSE]
he was gonna find a way…
so i’m planning all these arguments…
-
and he goes
$300 okay
-
pulls out a wad of money from the show
and he goes…extra $100
[PAUSE]
and i remember thinking, son of a bitch
i have all these land mines…stepped on one yet
whatever, thank you, made $1000!
[PAUSE]
-
he gave me a ride home that night
and he gave me the ride home
and as he’s dropping me off
he says, what do you do for a living?
i don’t do nothing
he says why don’t you come work for me?
[PAUSE]
-
and i’m looking down at my laces which mean i’m a neo-nazi
[PAUSE]
-
and i keep looking at laces as he’s talking to me this jewish man
[PAUSE]
-
and i’m trying to hide boots underneath seat
-
and i’m just looking at him like - thank God this human being is in my life
[PAUSE]
-
i was full of fear
i was full of absolute fear, of everything
and so i got with a group of people
who were also fearful people
fearful of losing their homeland
loose their women to the black
you name it
[PAUSE]
-
in my fear i felt mainly weak
and what they did
is they turned my fear into an anger
so my weakness into a strong point
[PAUSE]
-
i was embarrassed
i was completely embarrassed of my beliefs
i was wrong
i had been completely wrong for the last 7 years of my life
[PAUSE]
-
this is all bullshit
i was willing to die and kill for BULLSHIT
[PAUSE]
-
i had so much seniority in this group
that seniority was important to me because i had nothing in this world
[PAUSE]
i cut everything that wasn’t part of the movement out of my life
so that’s all i have
--------------------------------------
car ride is coming to an end
and he drops me off
and he says, i’ll see you monday right?
-
and
i could not wait to get those boots off
[PAUSE]
-
my whole image of me is gone
and i have to build something new
[PAUSE]
---------------------
NARRATION:
The Jewish antique dealer who gave Frank a job.
The jail guard who BROKE the solitary confinement rules to let Jesse read in the library
And the FBI agent who took Jesse on as an informant.
-
These were the kinds of people Frank and Jesse had previously seen as the enemy.
They were PRECISELY the people Frank and Jesse LEAST deserved compassion from,
but who gave it to them
-
FRANK
april 19, 1995
-
i go to a local corner delhi in south philly right by my mom’s house
and i go to the corner delhi
and i order a hoagie
and i get a hoagie
-
and the guy behind says OMG…bombing in Oklahoma
[PAUSE]
federal building
I thought it was islamic
something along them lines
-
in the deli it was on TV
the news team was saying bombing here, medical team…and they were showing still shots of pictures of the day
in OK city
there’s this picture of this fireman…
[PAUSE]
----------------------------------
i felt absolutely evil
i felt like i had
I had taken part in preaching this type of evil
That this should happen
That we should do these type of things
That we should blow up federal buildings
someone won’t ever see their little girl again
because of my beliefs
because of the beliefs that i preached
[PAUSE]
------------------------------------------
i wanted to just be left alone
i wanted to hide in south philly and forget about everything that happened over the last 6 years
[PAUSE]
now i’m like
even thought it’s 100% wrong
I can justify it
I can explain to people why someone would feel that way
———————————————————————————--
So
[SIGH]
um
oklahoma city
i believe it was a thursday that it happened
by monday
it was shaking me
so i went to the FBI…
———————————————————————————--
…oklahoma city bombing
[PAUSE]
-
they sat me
they sat me down
FBI guy comes in…
——————--
What’s your name?
Who do you know?
I just needed to talk to someone about blowing up
[LONG SILENCE]
-
was this the first time?
first time, EVERYTHING
[PAUSE]
-
how did you feel?
-
felt good
[PAUSE]
—————————————————--
NARRATION:
The Oklahoma City bombing remains the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in US history,
killing almost 200 people, and injuring almost 700 more.
Its perpetrator, Timothy McVeigh, frequently quoted white supremacist propaganda.
Frank initially thought the bombing was perpetrated by Islamic extrEmists
But white supremacists kill more than twice as many Americans as jihadists
[PAUSE]
-
END MUSIC
Frank’s visit to the FBI ended up landing him a gig with his former arch-nemesis: the Anti-Defamation League
He started by speaking to the ADL Director’s daughter’s fourth grade class
And then started speaking about racial tolerance on behalf of the ADL / to audiences all over the country
Jesse’s work as an FBI informant got him released after serving less than a third of his sentence
It also landed him a research position at George Washington University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JESSE
i think it might have been sep 1
when i went public as america’s first former jihadist
[PAUSE]
-
in the morning
Rukmini Calamachi ran a front page NYT piece
-
the media response was overwhelming
i was soon doing
on average
i would say
3-4 interviews a day
-
i was so excited
[PAUSE]
i felt like i had finally found a position in life where i could contribute
and also was honored to be given a chance by a major university in the US
[PAUSE]
-
-
i did more interviews and i struggled to manage my time
i stopped sleeping
many hours at night
i stopped eating breakfast
i stopped exercising
i didn’t have balance at all
i was traveling a lot
i was trying to respond and do the best i could for every media interview
and then i would see the final pieces and they would be so simplistic
they reduced me to a very basic narrative - there was no complexity at all
i was just a former extremist
[PAUSE]
-
i was at the same time
i was in a relationship with a alcoholic who i started to drink with
it was my first drink in 16 years
a week later, first cigarette…
first time marijuana
-
and then the holiday season
came
[PAUSE]
-
i was supposed to go home and see my family
[PAUSE]
-
so
i’m sitting in my car and ready to to go Penn to see my family for thanksgiving
and i feel like
i’m just this narrative, this object
that is good for media but nothing else
i’m just a story
[PAUSE]
-
i never made it home to pennsylvania
———————————————————————————--
NARRATION
Instead, Jesse made it back to jail, arrested on possession of crack cocaine.
-
the same things that caused me to adopt radical islam were still there!
They had never been dealt with
i thought they were put to sleep cuz i had left alone an ideology, but i never did the work to heal!
————————————————————————
deradicalization is a process, not an event
it goes back and forth
it goes up and down
it goes in and out
it goes all over the place
one day you’re like firmly committed that it’s okay to change like this
the next day you’re a hypocrite in your own brain
[PAUSE]
-
there is no end to the journey
it’s a continuous process of regeneration and learning
you have to be open to change
-------------------------------------
FRANK
let’s say he went to a spencer rally
got caught on the news, screaming N-word
someone puts his address on Twitter…
that guy is…now this is coming back to haunt me
so now he has some repercussions
[PAUSE]
there’s gotta be repercussions
he has something where family members don’t want him around because just talk about racist bullshit…
that’s what my family did cuz i was a racist thug
[PAUSE]
-
everyone in his life has called him an idiot…
[PAUSE]
-
and then I come along
i don’t fight ideology at all
[PAUSE]
i talk to him about HIM and what’s going on with him
[PAUSE]
——————————————--
hey, back when you were joining this group
is this what you imagined your life was gonna be like?
[PAUSE]
your family doesnt want you around
is this REALLY what you thought…?
[PAUSE]
---
JESSE
the former extremist
they can relate
they can understand what it’s like to be in another’s shoes
which is definition of empathy
and they understand the nuances of the worldview that’s espoused
[PAUSE]
-
Google Ideas was the first entity to put former extremists together
and to sort of tease out commonalities between extremists…
one of the things they found from a former extremist to an extremist
is a very effective tool…
and so they are going to expand what they call AVE network
[PAUSE]
———————————————————--
the AVE network is a network of ….
that can then formulate as an alternative community that can ultimately challenge those networks and those communities that are extremist
[PAUSE]
-
until we develop networks that rival in size and scope, we’re never going to deal with the problem
-
FRANK
stop throwing bottles at the neo-nazis
seriously
not working
battling hate with hate is never gonna win
-
it takes a harder and stronger person to try to have conversation
when people had convos that were real, that’s when i couldn’t hate them anymore
——————————————--
probably the most majestic creature on the whole planet is the elephant
-
NARRATION:
Frank has a story he likes to tell about elephants.
The way he tells it:
In the 1950’s in sub-Saharan Africa, elephants were being hunted to extinction for their tusks.
So conservationists rounded up 200 baby elephants, and created an elephant reserve.
-
they thought we’ll get em all together
they won’t even know they’re from different herds
they’ll be kumbaya fucking elephants
it’ll be great!
and they were
it worked
kumbaya
they got along great
[PAUSE]
except they didn’t get along with nothing else
they killed the hippos….giraffes..
so they started killing the elephants again
cuz they didn’t know what to do with them
[PAUSE]
-
so
as they were shooting some of the meaner/nastier bulls
they like teenager year elephants
whatever teenage year in elephants is, that’s what they were
-
old african man goes to them and says:
please stop shooting the elephants
[PAUSE]
you’re confusing them
you need to stop killing them
[PAUSE]
——————————————--
but we have to, they’re getting too aggressive
he goes, oh no
you don’t need to shoot em, just need to get bulls…let them slap the shit out of these ones and teach em how to act like an elephant
no one’s ever taught them to act like an elephant
[PAUSE]
and it worked!
within months they got in line…
i’m not talking about violence
we have to be the old elephants
and sometimes you gotta recognize that you’re the young elephant and get a mentor
we need to step in now, and start saying these things to each other
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NARRATION:
My parents are from Mexico and have pretty thick Mexican accents
-
A couple weeks ago, my dad was playing doubles tennis
And a player on the OPPOSITE team made a comment about ICE (Immigrations and Customs Enforcement) coming after him
The guy’s tennis partner laughed, and my dad and HIS partner just ignored it and kept on playing
------
After the game, my dad mentioned the comment to his team captain, who then wanted to tell the captain of this OTHER guy’s team
So my dad called me / to ask what he should do
And so I asked him: what do you want?
And he said: I want this guy to know that he did something wrong
------
There’s a whole tension around coddling bigots – ESPECIALLY those who commit violence
There’s a million reasons why THIS PERSON doesn't deserve our forgivenesss/compassion
And we might be absolutely right – AND we might also ask ourselves: what do we want?
------
If what we want is to let our adversaries know that they’re doing something wrong, then we’re already SUCCEEDING
If we ALSO want to do some jiujitsu on bigotry / and see more compassion in the world, wellllll then WE might have to be more compassionate ourselves
-------
My dad and I went back and forth, and I suggested saying to the guy – hey, based on your comment, sounds like you might not know many people who immigrated to the US legally. I came legally from Mexico, how about we get together and I tell you my story?
Of course this is NOT my dad’s job, AND unless we all sign up to be old elephants AND baby elephants
how will we all become majestic elephants?
-
JESSE
my father, his family is traced all the way back to the massacdusettes bay colony
sons and daughters of the american revolution
—————————————————--
FRANK
my dad was italian
he has an italian last name
-
my mom always told us we were irish
even tho we didn’t have irish last name
we have meeink…
[PAUSE]
years and years later we find out that meeink is jewish
[PAUSE]
-
i could have been a left-wing guerrilla in columbia
could have been anything!
[PAUSE]
whatever would have grabbed me at that time, i woulda been ready for
—————————————————--
JESSE
it’s not so much about the radicalization of islam, but the islamization of radicalism
[PAUSE]
it’s not so much about the ideology itself
it’s about the way that ideology presents itself as an alternative worldview
and a countercultural movement that offers people something different than
the world they have come to experience
[PAUSE]
—————————————————--
-
at one point i thought justification for what i’d done due to what was done to me
now i realize that’s the easy way out
that’s an excuse
everyone has culpability in who they become, no matter what was done to them
[PAUSE]
-
the one way i do see myself as a victim is in the way our society is
uncompassionate
[PAUSE]
-
majority of friends i grew up in working class america
have died from heroine overdoses…
i could have easily been one of them
[PAUSE]
-
radical islam was my outlet
it was my way to cope
it was my way to deal with not having privilege
it was my way to cope with same things as right wing
——————————————--
the grievances of white nationalists are the same as islamists!, so until we address grievances, rhetoric will fall flat
[PAUSE]
a lot of people aren’t willing to be barristers at Starbucks…
——————————————--
this might be psychotically optimistic, but what about bringing extremists together in popular movement for human development?
that’s what AVE is trying to do
and I think it’s necessary
[PAUSE]
——————————————--
we need a robust movement that can pose an alternative for those that are in extremist movements
-
NARRATION
Jesse Morton is the first former jihadi extremist in the US / to go public.
Right now he does work in counter-extrEmism as a labor of love,
And work in construction to pay the bills.
Someday, he’d love to be able to do counter-extrEmism work full-time.
---
Frank Meeink is the basis for Ed Norton’s character in the 1998 film American History X
He spends most of his time teaching racial tolerance to kids through hockey.
-----
Frank and Jesse are both members of the Institute for Strategic Dialogue’s Against Violent Extremism Network – a network of former extremists and survivors of extremism who work to challenge extremism in all its forms
Combined, Frank and Jesse have done hundreds of one-on-one interventions on people who commit extremist violence without the involvement of law enforcement
-----
And they are SO MUCH MORE than former extremists
They are humble and creative individuals with a VERY DARK PAST that they are STILL working through with the help of rehab and therapy and meditation and friends
They / are husbands
And they’re dads who’ve made the monumental LEAP of giving their kids more love than they got.
-------------------
If you want more storytelling than Reckonings is currently putting out
I’m gonna turn you onto a podcast I have been loving, called: This Is Actually Happening
It features first person accounts of dramatically life-changing events
So you can tell why I like it :)
But it also does that in this really beautiful way – by letting guests do ALL the talking, with no narration
Check it out at permatemp.org/happening and on instagram at @actuallyhappening
-----------------------------------
Those of you who make an ongoing contribution of $8 or more now get your 15 seconds of fame – thank you:
Kyle Studstill
Tibet Sprague
Trevor Stutz
Dan Weissman
Scott Saunders
Jacqueline Gerson
and Cristoffer
You too can enjoy the glory of your name in the credits at patreon.com/reckonings
And an extra special set of thanks go to folks who contributed to THIS EPISODE: Helena de Groot, Vika Aronson, Moustafa Ayad, Oren Segal and Todd Gutnick, Maureen Costello, Dan Keyserling, The Germanacos Foundation,
AND TO the Gen Next Foundation — whose partnership with ISD and Google Jigsaw created the Against Violent Extremism (AVE) network.
---
I’m Stephanie Lepp, and thanks last but not least to YOU for listening to Reckonings
